Nibbana, Atta & Anatta

[coedabgf]

 [at] bro dilbert,
jawabannya sudah saya tulis diatas
kutipan :
inilah yang dimaksud (jalan) mahayana (jalan tembak langsung) contohnya Zen, bukan jalan umum/awam berputar-putar. 
bukan pula jalan aneh-aneh cantol sana cantol sini (campulan khayal dan takhayul) seperti yang lain.
so adakah yang sudah tercerahkan klo begitu?

semoga menggugah pencerahan umat/murid guru Buddha semua
good hope and love

[coedabgf]

yang didalam dapat melihat apa yang ada diluar dan didalam,
tetapi yang diluar hanya sebatas yang terlihat diluar (fenomena).

[coedabgf]

jalan umum/awam (hanya) mengajarkan pengenalan ciri-ciri (yang bersifat) fenomena untuk dapat melihat kesia-siaan dan menanggalkannya.

[coedabgf]

seperti kutipan sutra ini :
"When I have taught non-Self, fools uphold the teaching that there is no Self. The wise know that such is conventional speech [vyavahara-vat] and they are free from doubts."

"The True Self is the Tathagata-dhatu. You should know that all beings do have it, but it is not apparent, since those beings are enveloped by immeasurable kleshas [mental afflictions]. It is, for example, like a cache of precious treasure that exists within an impoverished dwelling, though unknown. Then, somebody who is skilled in the characteristics of treasure said to the poor man, "Do some work for me, and I'll give you wealth and treasure." The poor man replied, "I can't come. Why not? Because there is a cache of treasure within my old home, and I can't abandon it." The man said, "You are foolish, for you do not know the location of the treasure. Work for me and I'll give you the precious treasure, which you will be able to use without its ever becoming exhausted." After he had said this, that person then removed the precious treasure from that house and gave it to him. The poor man was delighted and amazed, knowing that that person was truly reliable. All beings are also like that, for each one of them has the Tathagata-dhatu, but they are unaware of that because it is enveloped and submerged beneath immeasurable kleshas. The Tathagata skilfully encourages them and reveals it, causing them to know that the Tathagata-dhatu exists within their bodies and accept this with confidence."

Noble son, the Tathagata first taught people to cultivate the notion that all phenomena are devoid of a Self, in order to encourage and train them. When they have cultivated non-Self, they eliminate the false view of the Self. Having eliminated the false view of the Self, they enter Nirvana. I have taught non-Self in order to eradicate the mundane/ conventional self. Subsequently, I teach the Tathagata-dhatu with skilful words of implicit intent. This is called the True Self, which is divorced from the mundane ..."

semoga mendapatkan
good hope and love

[coedabgf]

sebagai yang murid/umat yang diajar berprinsip ehipassiko, silahkan kebenaran ini diselidiki, dipertentangkan dengan memakai kutipan sutta sutta pengajaran guru Buddha yang ada. sehingga berguna seperti pelaut berlayar menemukan mercu suar pantai seberang.

[coedabgf]

dan pengetahuan hanyalah sebagai perahu 'tuk menuju dan mencapai kenyataan pantai seberang.

[tesla]

coba pelajari di mahaparinirvana sutra.
ini sedikit cuplikan ujaran Buddha :

"When I have taught non-Self, fools uphold the teaching that there is no Self. The wise know that such is conventional speech [vyavahara-vat] and they are free from doubts."

"The True Self is the Tathagata-dhatu. You should know that all beings do have it, but it is not apparent, since those beings are enveloped by immeasurable kleshas [mental afflictions]. It is, for example, like a cache of precious treasure that exists within an impoverished dwelling, though unknown. Then, somebody who is skilled in the characteristics of treasure said to the poor man, "Do some work for me, and I'll give you wealth and treasure." The poor man replied, "I can't come. Why not? Because there is a cache of treasure within my old home, and I can't abandon it." The man said, "You are foolish, for you do not know the location of the treasure. Work for me and I'll give you the precious treasure, which you will be able to use without its ever becoming exhausted." After he had said this, that person then removed the precious treasure from that house and gave it to him. The poor man was delighted and amazed, knowing that that person was truly reliable. All beings are also like that, for each one of them has the Tathagata-dhatu, but they are unaware of that because it is enveloped and submerged beneath immeasurable kleshas. The Tathagata skilfully encourages them and reveals it, causing them to know that the Tathagata-dhatu exists within their bodies and accept this with confidence."

Noble son, the Tathagata first taught people to cultivate the notion that all phenomena are devoid of a Self, in order to encourage and train them. When they have cultivated non-Self, they eliminate the false view of the Self. Having eliminated the false view of the Self, they enter Nirvana. I have taught non-Self in order to eradicate the mundane/ conventional self. Subsequently, I teach the Tathagata-dhatu with skilful words of implicit intent. This is called the True Self, which is divorced from the mundane ..."

oh ternyata seputar doktrin

[coedabgf]

saat belum mengalami realitas kenyataan kebenaran, pantai seberangpun adalah doktrin (menurut murid awam), dan perkataan 'doktrin'pun adalah doktrin (bukan kebenaran) dari seseorang (murid awam tersebut). so itulah mengapa... guru Buddha menyuruh berehipassiko.

[tesla]

saat belum mengalami realitas, ngomong doktrin cuma seputar doktrin itu sendiri
sedang kalau udah mengalami, ngomong doktrin seputar realitas.

[Hendra Susanto]

kembali dualitas teori dan praktek

[Lily W]

Anicca, dukkha & anatta ibarat setali 3 uang

benar...

dalam Saláyatana Samyutta 4, dikatakan:
dhamma (sesuatu) adalah anicca: krn anicca maka dukkha: karena dukkha maka anatta.
bisa disingkat dalam formula:

anicca -> dukkha -> anatta



kemudian dalam anatta lakkhana sutta dikatakan:
jika [nama&rupa] adalah atta, maka tidak akan membawa pada penderitaan.
tetapi karena [nama&rupa] adalah anatta, maka ia membawa pada penderitaan

formulanya adalah:

anatta -> dukkha



inilah nibbana, bagaimanapun tidak tepat utk dikategorikan dalam ketiga corak sesuatu (tilakkhana). jika nibbana adalah anatta, maka ia akan membawa pada penderitaan.

Dalam Tilakhana... dukkha tidak bisa diartikan sebagai penderitaan. dukkha di tilakhana (menurut Abhidhamma) adalah tidak memuaskan karena tilakkhana berlaku pada makhluk dan bukan makhluk (benda mati).

Sang Buddha aja tidak terbebas dari Dukkha (Tilakkhana)....tapi terbebas dari Dukkha (Arya sacca).

[tesla]

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying in Magadha in Nalaka Village. Then Jambukhadika the wanderer went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After this exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. Sariputta: "'Stress, stress,' it is said, my friend Sariputta. Which type of stress [are they referring to]?"

"There are these three forms of stressfulness, my friend: the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness."

"But is there a path, is there a practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness?"

"Yes, there is a path, there is a practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness."

"Then what is the path, what is the practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness?"

"Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path, my friend — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the path, this is the practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness."

"It's an auspicious path, my friend, an auspicious practice for the full comprehension of these forms of stressfulness — enough for the sake of heedfulness."

sepertinya benda mati pun tidak dapat lepas dari dukkha (dukkha dari perubahan)
bagaimana menurut ce lily?

[Lily W]

Harus jelas dulu... dukkha itu yg di tilakhana atau yg di Arya Sacca?
~ Kalo dukkha di tilakkhana... bukan makhluk (benda mati) juga tidak dapat lepas dari dukkha.
~ Kalo dukkha di Arya sacca... tidak berlaku bagi bukan makhluk (benda mati)...sifat dukkhanya adalah terjadi pada makhluk hidup.

cmiiw...

[tesla]

Harus jelas dulu... dukkha itu yg di tilakhana atau yg di Arya Sacca?
Kalo dukkha di tilakkhana... bukan makhluk (benda mati) juga tidak dapat lepas dari dukkha.

btw, beda benda mati & benda hidup apa?

[William_phang]

Harus jelas dulu... dukkha itu yg di tilakhana atau yg di Arya Sacca?
Kalo dukkha di tilakkhana... bukan makhluk (benda mati) juga tidak dapat lepas dari dukkha.

btw, beda benda mati & benda hidup apa?

beda benda mati dan benda hidup kayaknya pada tunduk pada citta niyama dan kamma niyama ato ngga deh...