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Offline Sol Capoeira

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #60 on: 28 May 2008, 07:55:58 PM »
kok jadi OOT yak?

back to Abhidhamma...~~

ayo Ci Lily, Tesla..bond..

ajarin..haha

Offline SaddhaMitta

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #61 on: 29 May 2008, 01:28:13 AM »
Thx penjeleasannya ci Lily, ko Willi, ko Tesla...
 [at] papa bond. pintar juga ya... (papa sapa dulu nih)  :D :D
 [at] Elsol, dah ngerti kan?  :jempol:
buka bab kedua nih...
Setelah Anatta, Akusala Cetasika dan 14 kelompoknya yang termaksud dalam Lobha, Moha dan Dosa. apalagi nih yang termasud Abhidhamma?

 ^:)^ ^:)^ Tetua-Tetua tolong kasih pelajaran lanjutan...

Thx...  :x :x :x
Seperti air sungai Gangga yang mengalir, meluncur, mengarah ke timur,
demikian juga barang siapa yang melakukan dan berbuat banyak didalam Delapan Jalan kebenaran, mengalir, melucur, mengarah ke Nibbana.

(Samyutta Nikaya)

Offline bond

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #62 on: 29 May 2008, 07:46:46 AM »
Simplenya mungkin gini, ketika elsol liat org clubbing muak, sebenernya tidak ada masalah dosa disitu muncul, apalagi dosa terhadap kemorosotan batin melalui clubbing. Karena elsol sudah melihat kekotoran dalam clubbing sehingga muncul rasa muak. Selanjutnya yg diperlukan elsol adalah menggunakan kebijaksanaan yaitu ketika muncul muak/jijik terhadap clubbing dan mengetahui kekotorannya, maka dengan disadarinya secara mendalam maka elsol tidak akan clubbing dan meninggalkan clubbing itu sendiri. Jadi sebenarnya itu semua proses dari dosa bisa menjadi upekha bila menggunakan panna. Jadi sebenarnya titik persoalannya adalah di panna itu sendiri.

Jijik tidak perlu dipendam ataupun dikembangkan tetapi disadari dengan panna dan let it go jijik itu sendiri, artinya jika rasa jijik yg muncul dan menimbulkan pengetahuan baru tentang keadaan sebenarnya, dan timbul kesimbangan batin. itulah yg diperlukan sebenarnya.


 _/\_

Bond, kayakne loe dah nangkep maksud gw..haha..

jadi kesimpulannya..yg penting itu Upekkha yak?

gitu maksudne..

Betul sol upekha aja.
Natthi me saranam annam, Buddho me saranam varam, Etena saccavajjena, Sotthi te hotu sabbada

Offline Riky_dave

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #63 on: 29 May 2008, 12:24:35 PM »
_/\_
Langkah pertama adalah langkah yg terakhir...

Offline Balhamoth

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #64 on: 10 June 2008, 07:35:29 PM »
cc2 dan kk2 setelah 5 halaman baru tau ada kelas ini hua-hua
dari posting-postingan kok aku tambah pusing n ga ngerti yah... hua3x maksud e opo toh... mungkin bukan muak dan benci setelah melihat kenyataan bahwa tubuh ini adalah dukkha kita menjadi lebih bijaksana untuk tidak membangga-banggakan tubuh ini maksudnya gitu kan? sungguh bingung  :'( :'(

 _/\_
Ada yang mengukur hidup mereka dari hari dan tahun
Yang lain dengan denyut jantung, gairah, dan air mata
Tapi ukuran sejati di bawah mentari
Adalah apa yang telah engkau lakukan dalam hidup ini
Untuk orang lain - Ruth Smiller

Offline markosprawira

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #65 on: 12 June 2008, 04:48:58 PM »
dear balhamoth,

senang anda bisa gabung kesini.... itu udah vipaka baik loh.... he3....

singkatnya memang agar kita tidak membangga2kan tubuh ini, karena ternyata tubuh ini amat sangat rapuh

lebih dalam, adalah bahwa mengingat tubuh ini sedemikian rapuhnya, kita harus merawat tanpa berlebihan di dalam usaha untuk mencapai pembebasan/nibbana

lebih dalam lagi, tubuh ini dapat dijadikan objek perenungan. Bahwa tubuh ini adalah anicca, tidaklah luput dari proses timbul - berlangsung - tenggelam - padam......

demikian sedikit pengertian yang saya dapat share ke rekan balhamoth, semoga bisa memberi sedikit masukan yah.......

Offline Balhamoth

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #66 on: 12 June 2008, 08:06:52 PM »
oo
ic now om marko....
thanks buat penjelasannya...


 _/\_ _/\_ _/\_ _/\_
Ada yang mengukur hidup mereka dari hari dan tahun
Yang lain dengan denyut jantung, gairah, dan air mata
Tapi ukuran sejati di bawah mentari
Adalah apa yang telah engkau lakukan dalam hidup ini
Untuk orang lain - Ruth Smiller

Offline markosprawira

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #67 on: 13 June 2008, 09:26:31 AM »
sekedar sharing cerita Zen :

ada biksu muda yang berkomentar : Tidak ada "AKU"

biksu tua lalu mengetok kepalanya (bunyi Tookk!!)

biksu muda marah : "Hei mengapa anda mengetok kepala saya"

biksu tua : "Loh bukannya tidak ada AKU??"

demikianlah biasanya org berteori tentang AKU, tapi ternyata masih marah jika terjadi pada "sesuatu" yang berhubungan dengannya itu.

Biksu muda marah karena "kepala"nya digetok
Guru tersinggung jika "murid"nya diganggu
Murid tidak senang jika "guru"nya dikritik
Orang marah karena "idola"nya dikritik

dsb...............

semoga ini bisa memberi pencerahan bagi kita semua yah............
« Last Edit: 13 June 2008, 09:44:12 AM by markosprawira »

Offline tesla

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #68 on: 13 June 2008, 11:09:50 AM »
^ ada apa ini tiba2... hehehe

Abhidhamma Class nih :)
Lepaskan keserakahan akan kesenangan. Lihatlah bahwa melepaskan dunia adalah kedamaian. Tidak ada sesuatu pun yang perlu kau raup, dan tidak ada satu pun yang perlu kau dorong pergi. ~ Buddha ~

Offline tesla

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #69 on: 13 June 2008, 11:12:58 AM »
[at] karuna : menarik yang anda jabarkan........ pernah kami diskusikan di kelas mengenai magga dan phala yang muncul berurutan, magga dan langsung disusul dengan phala...... waktunya sangat cepat sekali mengingat kecepatan 1 citta/kesadaran adalah 1/10^26 detik (sepertrilyun trilyun trilyun detik)

namun sebelum kita bahas lebih jauh, apa tidak sebaiknya jika dilanjutkan di bagian khusus Abhidhamma??? anda tau lah, ada yang "ga sreg" ama label abhidhamma he3.......

bro markos, saya ingin bertanya, kalau citta magga & phala muncul berurutan, kenapa pengelompokkan mahkluk, puggala bheda bagian ariya ada 8:
misalnya:
1 sotapanna magga
2 sotapanna phala
3 dst...

Anumodana _/\_
Lepaskan keserakahan akan kesenangan. Lihatlah bahwa melepaskan dunia adalah kedamaian. Tidak ada sesuatu pun yang perlu kau raup, dan tidak ada satu pun yang perlu kau dorong pergi. ~ Buddha ~

Offline Sunkmanitu Tanka Ob'waci

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #70 on: 13 June 2008, 11:50:51 AM »
‘Friends, any monk or nun who declares arahantship in my presence has arrived there by four paths or by one of them. What four? Here, friends, a monk develops samatha prior to vipassana. While he is developing samatha prior to vipassana the path is born in him. He cultivates, develops, and makes much of that path. As he does so his fetters are abandoned and his inherent compulsions are eradicated. Again, friends, a monk develops vipassana prior to samatha.... Again, friends, a monk develops samatha and vipassana yoked equally.... Again, friends, a monk's mind is seized by restlessness for the Dhamma. When the mind settles down within, becomes steady, unified, and concentrated in samadhi, then the path is born in him. He cultivates, develops, and makes much of that path. As he does so, his fetters are abandoned and his inherent compulsions are eradicated.’[8] -- A 4.170

This and other sutta passages indicate that "magga" is more than a moment -- it may take quite a while to develop it until a certain number of fetters are abandoned. Then one may progress onto a higher level and give rise to the next path, and so on.
Bhikkhu Gavesako

Bhante,
It would be more accurate to say that this is one of several sutta passages that are popularly cited by those who object to the Theravadin conception of sudden awakening (ekābhisamaya). However, such objections to momentarism (and its implications for awakening) have been anticipated and answered by the commentators. Regarding the passage above, the 'path' in the phrase "the path is born in him" refers to the first arising of the supramundane path, while the phrase "he cultivates, develops, and makes much of that path" refers to the subsequent effort aimed at generating the higher paths and fruits. The commentary to the Yuganaddha Sutta explicitly notes that the Sutta's mention of a path that has to be "cultivated, developed etc." does not refer to the first ekacittakkhaṇika magga.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

I used to think that perhaps this 'momentary' understanding of magga is just a slight change of terminology that happened later in the development of Theravada philosophy. Instead of referring to the whole process of practising at a certain level (say, the path of once-returning) it would just refer to the culmination of development of that path, what is sometimes called magga-samangi, which would then be followed by the abandonment of the fetters, or phala (fruition).
Can I ask, how does the commentary explain the 8 types of individuals mentioned in the Suttas, namely, "one practising for realizing the fruit of stream-entry", "stream-enterer" and so on? (These are also described as recipients of offerings, which means they have to be at that particular stage for more than a single moment.)
Bhikkhu Gavesako

Bhante,
I think phalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanna would be better rendered as "one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit..." (Ñāṇamoli's rendering), rather than "one practising for..."
In answer to your question, a good place to start is the commentary to the Dakkhiṇāvibhaṅga Sutta (MN. 142); this is one of the suttas in which these persons are described as potential recipients of offerings.
It should be noted that the 8 types in this Sutta do not perfectly overlap with the "4 pairs of persons, 8 kinds of individuals" that constitute the Noble Saṅgha, for the pairs here are not attainer of the path vs. attainer of the fruit, but rather, one who has entered upon the way to realisation of the fruit vs. one has realised the fruit. In the commentarial exposition, attainers of each of the noble paths are a sub-class of persons who have entered upon the way to realisation of the fruit of the path in question.
The phrase "one who has entered upon the way to realisation of the fruit of stream-entry" (sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanna) is defined by the commentary according to the Sutta Method, and the definition given is a rather broad and inclusive one; in this context any worldling who has become an upāsaka by going to the three refuges is reckoned as "one who has entered upon the way to realisation of the fruit..." The commentator remarks that being an upāsaka with the three refuges is the bare minimum (heṭṭhimakoṭi) for a person to be counted as such; he then proceeds to list seven other types who are progressively more worthy to be recipients of offerings:
• one established in the five precepts;
• one established in the ten precepts;
• one who goes forth as a sāmaṇera (so long as the offering is given to him on the day he goes forth);
• a bhikkhu who is dutiful (vattasampanna);
• a vipassaka (i.e. one who has developed insight up to but not including the knowledge of rise and fall);
• an āraddhavipassaka (one who has developed strong insight, i.e. knowledge of rise and fall onwards);
• a maggasamaṅgī (one possessed of the factors of the path).
The last is the highest type and is the only one who has actually attained sotāpatti magga.
The commentator then asks if it is possible to give a gift to a maggasamaṅgī, considering that such a person only exists for a single mind-moment. He answers that it is and gives the example of an āraddhavipassaka bhikkhu who goes to a layman's house for almsfood, the people there take his almsbowl from him and then emergence of the path (magga-vuṭṭhāna) occurs in him at the same moment that they are putting food in his bowl. There are a few other examples given, but they are essentially the same, differing only in the manner in which the food is given.
Another passage of interest comes at the end of the commentary to the Kosambiya Sutta (MN. 48). I haven't time to translate or go over this now, but will just paste in the Pali for you to read.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāyā ti karaṇavacanaṃ, sotāpattiphalasacchikatañāṇenāti attho. evaṃ sattaṅgasamannāgato ti evaṃ imehi sattahi mahāpaccavekkhaṇañāṇehi samannāgato. ayaṃ tāva ācariyānaṃ samānakathā. lokuttaramaggo hi bahucittakkhaṇiko nāma natthi.

vitaṇḍavādī pana ekacittakkhaṇiko nāma maggo natthi, “evaṃ bhāveyya satta vassānī” ti hi vacanato sattapi vassāni maggabhāvanā honti. kilesā pana lahu chijjantā sattahi ñāṇehi chijjantīti vadati. so suttaṃ āharāti vattabbo, addhā aññaṃ suttaṃ apassanto, “idamassa paṭhamaṃ ñāṇaṃ adhigataṃ hoti, idamassa dutiyaṃ ñāṇaṃ … pe0 … idamassa sattamaṃ ñāṇaṃ adhigataṃ hotī” ti imameva āharitvā dassessati. tato vattabbo kiṃ panidaṃ suttaṃ neyyatthaṃ nītatthanti. tato vakkhati — “nītatthatthaṃ, yathāsuttaṃ tatheva attho” ti. so vattabbo — “dhammatā susamanniṭṭhā hoti sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāyāti ettha ko attho” ti? addhā sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāyatthoti vakkhati. tato pucchitabbo, “maggasamaṅgī phalaṃ sacchikaroti, phalasamaṅgī” ti. jānanto, “phalasamaṅgī sacchikarotī” ti vakkhati. tato vattabbo, — “evaṃ sattaṅgasamannāgato kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako sotāpattiphalasamannāgato hotīti idha maggaṃ abhāvetvā maṇḍūko viya uppatitvā ariyasāvako phalameva gaṇhissati. mā suttaṃ me laddhanti yaṃ vā taṃ vā avaca. pañhaṃ vissajjentena nāma ācariyasantike vasitvā buddhavacanaṃ uggaṇhitvā attharasaṃ viditvā vattabbaṃ hotī” ti. “imāni satta ñāṇāni ariyasāvakassa paccavekkhaṇañāṇāneva, lokuttaramaggo bahucittakkhaṇiko nāma natthi, ekacittakkhaṇikoyevā” ti saññāpetabbo. sace sañjānāti sañjānātu. no ce sañjānāti, “gaccha pātova vihāraṃ pavisitvā yāguṃ pivāhī” ti uyyojetabbo. sesaṃ sabbattha uttānamevāti.

Perhaps this will make it clearer:
List A: the Noble Sangha:
1. Attainer of the path of stream-entry. (Ariyan).
2. Attainer of the fruit of stream-entry. (Ariyan).

3. Attainer of the path of once-returning. (Ariyan).
4. Attainer of the fruit of once-returning. (Ariyan).

5. Attainer of the path of non-returning. (Ariyan).
6. Attainer of the fruit of non-returning. (Ariyan).

7. Attainer of the path of arahatta. (Ariyan).
8. Attainer of the fruit of arahatta. (Ariyan).

List B: Dakkhiṇāvibhangasutta's 8 persons worthy of gifts:

1. One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. (May be Ariyan or puthujjana. If he's an Ariyan then he will be the same as person 1 in List A).
2. Stream-entrant. (Ariyan = person 2 in List A).

3. One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of once-returning. (Ariyan).
4. Once-returner. (Ariyan).

5. One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of non-returning. (Ariyan).
6. Non-returner. (Ariyan).

7. One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of arahatta. (Ariyan).
8. Arahant. (Ariyan).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

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« Last Edit: 13 June 2008, 11:55:14 AM by karuna_murti »
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Offline markosprawira

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #71 on: 13 June 2008, 03:05:53 PM »
kalo secara singkatnya, mirip kaya kamma vipaka dan kamma phala....

vipaka bersifat given/pasif, menjadi hasil dari gaya2 dorongan kehidupan sebelumnya........

phala bersifat aktif, menjadi dorongan untuk ke kehidupan selanjutnya


demikian juga sotapanna magga, itu adalah citta yang given (hasil kehidupan sebelumnya membuat dia menjadi misalnya sotapana atau sakadagami)

sedangkan phala-nya, merupakan citta yang selanjutnya, yang muncul setelah magga........ ini yang kemudian akan mendorong untuk mencapai sakadagami magga......

jadi sebenarnya orangnya itu-itu aja, hanya saja citta yang timbul saja yang berbeda......

bisa kita baca dari tulisan Dr. Mon (pakar abhidhamma) mengenai para Ariya ini :
For example, a person is called a sotapatti maggattha person while the sotapatti-magga citta is arising in him. After the dissolution of this citta, sotapatti-phala citta arises in him and he is known as a sotapatti-phalattha person or sotapanna from this moment onwards.

source : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mtinmon4.htm


maaf jika ada kata2 yang kurang dimengerti yah, mengingat "beratnya" topik yang harus dituangkan, sementara pemahaman saya juga masih cetek.........

semoga bisa dimengerti.....
« Last Edit: 13 June 2008, 03:14:35 PM by markosprawira »

Offline Riky_dave

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #72 on: 13 June 2008, 03:50:27 PM »
_/\_
Langkah pertama adalah langkah yg terakhir...

Offline Lily W

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #73 on: 13 June 2008, 04:10:56 PM »
kalo secara singkatnya, mirip kaya kamma vipaka dan kamma phala....

vipaka bersifat given/pasif, menjadi hasil dari gaya2 dorongan kehidupan sebelumnya........

phala bersifat aktif, menjadi dorongan untuk ke kehidupan selanjutnya


demikian juga sotapanna magga, itu adalah citta yang given (hasil kehidupan sebelumnya membuat dia menjadi misalnya sotapana atau sakadagami)

sedangkan phala-nya, merupakan citta yang selanjutnya, yang muncul setelah magga........ ini yang kemudian akan mendorong untuk mencapai sakadagami magga......

jadi sebenarnya orangnya itu-itu aja, hanya saja citta yang timbul saja yang berbeda......

bisa kita baca dari tulisan Dr. Mon (pakar abhidhamma) mengenai para Ariya ini :
For example, a person is called a sotapatti maggattha person while the sotapatti-magga citta is arising in him. After the dissolution of this citta, sotapatti-phala citta arises in him and he is known as a sotapatti-phalattha person or sotapanna from this moment onwards.

source : http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mtinmon4.htm


maaf jika ada kata2 yang kurang dimengerti yah, mengingat "beratnya" topik yang harus dituangkan, sementara pemahaman saya juga masih cetek.........

semoga bisa dimengerti.....

Bro Markos..

Ya... topiknya memang berat... waktu kursus abhidhamma yg di ajarkan oleh Dr. Mehm Tin Mon (di VPDS) ada menjelaskan tentang topik itu... saya juga ga bisa memahami semuanya.... masih butuh perenungan... ;D

Anumodana atas penjelasannya yang di atas.... _/\_
_/\_ :lotus:
« Last Edit: 13 June 2008, 04:18:47 PM by Lily W »
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Offline markosprawira

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Re: AbhiDhamma Class
« Reply #74 on: 13 June 2008, 04:24:17 PM »
Thx penjeleasannya ci Lily, ko Willi, ko Tesla...
 [at] papa bond. pintar juga ya... (papa sapa dulu nih)  :D :D
 [at] Elsol, dah ngerti kan?  :jempol:
buka bab kedua nih...
Setelah Anatta, Akusala Cetasika dan 14 kelompoknya yang termaksud dalam Lobha, Moha dan Dosa. apalagi nih yang termasud Abhidhamma?

 ^:)^ ^:)^ Tetua-Tetua tolong kasih pelajaran lanjutan...

Thx...  :x :x :x

waduh... kayanya ada pertanyaan yang tertinggal nih....

selain 14 akusala cetasika, ada 6 cetasika yang selalu ada pada setiap citta, 7 cetasika yang munculnya random/kadang2 pada citta dan 25 cetasika yang kusala

ini skema-nya :






untuk terjemahan dan penjelasannya, mungkin ci lily bisa membantu??? sori, saya lagi diuber report akhir minggu  :-[


anumodana.......