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Offline ryu

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #210 on: 21 June 2010, 06:01:46 PM »
begini deh,
aku ada = LDM
aku tidak ada = a-LDM

atau

aku ada = LDM dan a-LDM
aku tidak ada = tidak ada LDM dan a-LDM

dan ketika a-LDM khan semua LDM Sudah hilang trus apa yang mau di hilangkan lagi bukankah "sudah tanpa" LDM, tanpa a-LDM itu seperti apa?
Janganlah memperhatikan kesalahan dan hal-hal yang telah atau belum dikerjakan oleh diri sendiri. Tetapi, perhatikanlah apa yang telah dikerjakan dan apa yang belum dikerjakan oleh orang lain =))

Offline K.K.

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #211 on: 21 June 2010, 06:11:04 PM »
begini deh,
aku ada = LDM
aku tidak ada = a-LDM

atau

aku ada = LDM dan a-LDM
aku tidak ada = tidak ada LDM dan a-LDM

dan ketika a-LDM khan semua LDM Sudah hilang trus apa yang mau di hilangkan lagi bukankah "sudah tanpa" LDM, tanpa a-LDM itu seperti apa?
Saya lebih cocok yang ke dua:

aku ada = LDM dan a-LDM
aku tidak ada = tidak ada LDM dan a-LDM

Dalam definisi saya, A-LDM adalah bukan padamnya LDM, tetapi sebuah bentuk dualitas dari LDM.

Offline ryu

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #212 on: 21 June 2010, 06:30:02 PM »
samsara=aku ada
nibbana=aku tdk ada

atau

samsara=aku ada dan aku tidak ada
nibbana=tidak ada "aku ada" dan tidak ada "aku tidak ada"?
Janganlah memperhatikan kesalahan dan hal-hal yang telah atau belum dikerjakan oleh diri sendiri. Tetapi, perhatikanlah apa yang telah dikerjakan dan apa yang belum dikerjakan oleh orang lain =))

Offline Riky_dave

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #213 on: 21 June 2010, 07:38:44 PM »
samsara=aku ada
nibbana=aku tdk ada

atau

samsara=aku ada dan aku tidak ada
nibbana=tidak ada "aku ada" dan tidak ada "aku tidak ada"?

paham yang sama seperti yang ditanyakan oleh Raja Pasendi dari Kosala kepada YM Bhikkhuni Khema dan Buddha Gotama... :D
Langkah pertama adalah langkah yg terakhir...

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #214 on: 21 June 2010, 09:56:11 PM »
begini deh,
aku ada = LDM
aku tidak ada = a-LDM

atau

aku ada = LDM dan a-LDM
aku tidak ada = tidak ada LDM dan a-LDM

dan ketika a-LDM khan semua LDM Sudah hilang trus apa yang mau di hilangkan lagi bukankah "sudah tanpa" LDM, tanpa a-LDM itu seperti apa?
Saya lebih cocok yang ke dua:

aku ada = LDM dan a-LDM
aku tidak ada = tidak ada LDM dan a-LDM

Dalam definisi saya, A-LDM adalah bukan padamnya LDM, tetapi sebuah bentuk dualitas dari LDM.

[at]  kain, sepertinya pemahaman aye yang bener deh, dalam sutta ini kalau saya tidak salah mengerti (soalnya aye kurang euy dalam inggrisnya, susah nyari yang b indo nya :P ) ini lebih jelas mengenai a-LDM :
Mula Sutta: Roots
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2005–2010

"Monks, there are these three roots of what is unskillful. Which three? Greed is a root of what is unskillful, aversion is a root of what is unskillful, delusion is a root of what is unskillful.

"Greed itself is unskillful. Whatever a greedy person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is unskillful. Whatever suffering a greedy person — his mind overcome with greed, his mind consumed — wrongly inflicts on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is unskillful. Thus it is that many evil, unskillful qualities/events — born of greed, caused by greed, originated through greed, conditioned by greed — come into play.

"Aversion itself is unskillful. Whatever an aversive person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is unskillful. Whatever suffering an aversive person — his mind overcome with aversion, his mind consumed — wrongly inflicts on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is unskillful. Thus it is that many evil, unskillful qualities — born of aversion, caused by aversion, originated through aversion, conditioned by aversion — come into play.

"Delusion itself is unskillful. Whatever a deluded person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is unskillful. Whatever suffering a deluded person — his mind overcome with delusion, his mind consumed — wrongly inflicts on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is unskillful. Thus it is that many evil, unskillful qualities — born of delusion, caused by delusion, originated through delusion, conditioned by delusion — come into play.

"And a person like this is called one who speaks at the wrong time, speaks what is unfactual, speaks what is irrelevant, speaks contrary to the Dhamma, speaks contrary to the Vinaya. Why...? Because of having wrongly inflicted suffering on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power.' When told what is factual, he denies it and doesn't acknowledge it. When told what is unfactual, he doesn't make an ardent effort to untangle it [to see], 'This is unfactual. This is baseless.' That's why a person like this is called one who speaks at the wrong time, speaks what is unfactual, speaks what is irrelevant, speaks contrary to the Dhamma, speaks contrary to the Vinaya.

"A person like this — his mind overcome with evil, unskillful qualities born of greed... born of aversion... born of delusion, his mind consumed — dwells in suffering right in the here-&-now — feeling threatened, turbulent, feverish — and at the break-up of the body, after death, can expect a bad destination.

"Just as a sal tree, a birch, or an aspen, when smothered & surrounded by three parasitic vines, falls into misfortune, falls into disaster, falls into misfortune & disaster, in the same way, a person like this — his mind overcome with evil, unskillful qualities born of greed... born of aversion... born of delusion, his mind consumed — dwells in suffering right in the here-&-now — feeling threatened, turbulent, feverish — and at the break-up of the body, after death, can expect a bad destination.

"These are the three roots of what is unskillful.

"Now, there are these three roots of what is skillful. Which three? Lack of greed is a root of what is skillful, lack of aversion is a root of what is skillful, lack of delusion is a root of what is skillful.

"Lack of greed itself is skillful. Whatever an ungreedy person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is skillful. Whatever suffering an ungreedy person — his mind not overcome with greed, his mind not consumed — does not wrongly inflict on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is skillful. Thus it is that many skillful qualities — born of lack of greed, caused by lack of greed, originated through lack of greed, conditioned by lack of greed — come into play.

"Lack of aversion itself is skillful...

"Lack of delusion itself is skillful. Whatever an undeluded person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is skillful. Whatever suffering an undeluded person — his mind not overcome with delusion, his mind not consumed — does not wrongly inflict on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is skillful. Thus it is that many skillful qualities — born of lack of delusion, caused by lack of delusion, originated through lack of delusion, conditioned by lack of delusion — come into play.

"And a person like this is called one who speaks at the right time, speaks what is factual, speaks what is relevant, speaks in line with the Dhamma, speaks in line with the Vinaya. Why...? Because of not having wrongly inflicted suffering on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power.' When told what is factual, he acknowledges it and does not deny it. When told what is unfactual, he makes an ardent effort to untangle it [to see], 'This is unfactual. This is baseless.' That's why a person like this is called one who speaks at the right time, speaks what is factual, speaks what is relevant, speaks in line with the Dhamma, speaks in line with the Vinaya.

"In a person like this, evil, unskillful qualities born of greed... born of aversion... born of delusion have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. He dwells in ease right in the here-&-now — feeling unthreatened, placid, unfeverish — and is unbound right in the here-&-now.

"Just as if there were a sal tree, a birch, or an aspen, smothered & surrounded by three parasitic vines. A man would come along, carrying a spade & a basket. He would cut the vines at the root and, having cut them at the root, would dig around them. Having dug around them, he would pull them out, even down to the rootlets. He would cut the stalks of the vines. Having cut them, he would slice them into splinters. Having sliced them into splinters, he would pound them into bits. Having pounded them into bits, he would dry them in the wind & sun. Having dried them in the wind & sun, he would burn them in a fire. Having burned them in a fire, he would reduce them to powdered ash. Having reduced them to powdered ash, he would winnow them before a high wind or let them be washed away in a swift-flowing stream. In that way the parasitic vines would have their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"In the same way, in a person like this, evil, unskillful qualities born of greed... born of aversion... born of delusion have been abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. He dwells in ease right in the here-&-now — feeling unthreatened, placid, unfeverish — and is unbound right in the here-&-now.

"These are the three roots of what is skillful."
Janganlah memperhatikan kesalahan dan hal-hal yang telah atau belum dikerjakan oleh diri sendiri. Tetapi, perhatikanlah apa yang telah dikerjakan dan apa yang belum dikerjakan oleh orang lain =))

Offline Sunkmanitu Tanka Ob'waci

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #215 on: 21 June 2010, 10:06:33 PM »
setahu saya 3 akar a-ldm yang menentukan kelahiran kembali. kalo yang berbakat jadi ariya biasanya punya 3 akar ini. setahu saya juga kalo udah ariya maka bukan ldm bukan a-ldm.
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Fake friends are like shadows never around on your darkest days

Offline Sunkmanitu Tanka Ob'waci

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #216 on: 21 June 2010, 10:08:36 PM »
selengkapnya lihat tihetuka kusala citta.
HANYA MENERIMA UCAPAN TERIMA KASIH DALAM BENTUK GRP
Fake friends are like shadows never around on your darkest days

Offline ryu

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #217 on: 21 June 2010, 10:16:41 PM »
selengkapnya lihat tihetuka kusala citta.
kaga ngerti, jelasin donggggggg.
Janganlah memperhatikan kesalahan dan hal-hal yang telah atau belum dikerjakan oleh diri sendiri. Tetapi, perhatikanlah apa yang telah dikerjakan dan apa yang belum dikerjakan oleh orang lain =))

Offline fabian c

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #218 on: 21 June 2010, 11:37:45 PM »
Teman-teman sekalian, sebelum meneruskan topik ini saya ingin bertanya: menurut teman-teman sekalian, apakah bernamaskara kepada bhikkhu atau Buddharupam adalah tindakan yang berlandaskan LDM atau A_LDM?

 _/\_
Tiga hal ini, O para bhikkhu dilakukan secara rahasia, bukan secara terbuka.
Bercinta dengan wanita, mantra para Brahmana dan pandangan salah.

Tiga hal ini, O para Bhikkhu, bersinar secara terbuka, bukan secara rahasia.
Lingkaran rembulan, lingkaran matahari serta Dhamma dan Vinaya Sang Tathagata

Offline Sunkmanitu Tanka Ob'waci

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #219 on: 21 June 2010, 11:39:10 PM »
menurut aye sih tergantung niatnya om.
HANYA MENERIMA UCAPAN TERIMA KASIH DALAM BENTUK GRP
Fake friends are like shadows never around on your darkest days

Offline fabian c

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #220 on: 21 June 2010, 11:48:02 PM »
menurut aye sih tergantung niatnya om.

Bro Sunkmanitu yang baik, bagaimana bila namaskara itu murni disebabkan rasa hormat kepada Sang Buddha? Anggaplah mungkin timbul dari rasa terima kasih. Apakah LDM atau A-LDM?

 _/\_

Tiga hal ini, O para bhikkhu dilakukan secara rahasia, bukan secara terbuka.
Bercinta dengan wanita, mantra para Brahmana dan pandangan salah.

Tiga hal ini, O para Bhikkhu, bersinar secara terbuka, bukan secara rahasia.
Lingkaran rembulan, lingkaran matahari serta Dhamma dan Vinaya Sang Tathagata

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #221 on: 21 June 2010, 11:49:05 PM »
seharusnya sih a-ldm yak.
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Offline fabian c

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #222 on: 21 June 2010, 11:53:28 PM »
seharusnya sih a-ldm yak.

Bro Sunkmanitu yang baik, memang benar saya setuju, seharusnya A-LDM. Pertanyaan selanjutnya, apakah dalam perbuatan ini masih ada kemelekatan atau tidak?

 _/\_
Tiga hal ini, O para bhikkhu dilakukan secara rahasia, bukan secara terbuka.
Bercinta dengan wanita, mantra para Brahmana dan pandangan salah.

Tiga hal ini, O para Bhikkhu, bersinar secara terbuka, bukan secara rahasia.
Lingkaran rembulan, lingkaran matahari serta Dhamma dan Vinaya Sang Tathagata

Offline fabian c

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #223 on: 21 June 2010, 11:59:01 PM »
begini deh,
aku ada = LDM
aku tidak ada = a-LDM

atau

aku ada = LDM dan a-LDM
aku tidak ada = tidak ada LDM dan a-LDM

dan ketika a-LDM khan semua LDM Sudah hilang trus apa yang mau di hilangkan lagi bukankah "sudah tanpa" LDM, tanpa a-LDM itu seperti apa?


Bro Ryu yang baik, tanya jawab saya dengan bro Sunkmanitu mungkin bisa menjadi bahan pemikiran bro Ryu. Mengenai hubungan aku dan LDM/A-LDM saya nggak ada yang cocok tuh.

Menurut saya: aku tak ada = mungkin LDM bisa juga A-LDM, atau tidak keduanya, jadi dalam keadaan apapun tak ada aku.

Perlu di cerna disini bahwa A-LDM hadir bukan berarti kemelekatan hilang. Kemelekatan itulah penyebab kelahiran kembali. LDM maupun A-LDM juga masih diliputi kemelekatan.

Untuk bro Sunkmanitu, rasanya kita sejalan kan? Tanya jawab itu saya lakukan karena pendapat saya sejalan dengan pendapat bro.

Quote
setahu saya 3 akar a-ldm yang menentukan kelahiran kembali. kalo yang berbakat jadi ariya biasanya punya 3 akar ini. setahu saya juga kalo udah ariya maka bukan ldm bukan a-ldm.

_/\_
« Last Edit: 22 June 2010, 12:02:40 AM by fabian c »
Tiga hal ini, O para bhikkhu dilakukan secara rahasia, bukan secara terbuka.
Bercinta dengan wanita, mantra para Brahmana dan pandangan salah.

Tiga hal ini, O para Bhikkhu, bersinar secara terbuka, bukan secara rahasia.
Lingkaran rembulan, lingkaran matahari serta Dhamma dan Vinaya Sang Tathagata

Offline tesla

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Re: Baru sadar bahwa Lobha, Dosa, Moha bukan masalah!
« Reply #224 on: 22 June 2010, 06:02:18 AM »
back again, sebenarnya saya tidak begitu setuju JM8 dikategorikan sbg aLDM, karma bukan gelap, bukan terang. (walau ini tercantum dalam sutta)
Kalau saya, bisa setuju, tetapi tidak secara langsung.
JMB8 yang dimulai dari pandangan benar yang melandasi unsur lainnya. Jika pandangan sudah benar, maka terwujud dalam segala aspek kehidupan. Mau dibagi jadi 8 unsur, 100 unsur, sama saja, semuanya bisa berupa kamma bukan gelap-bukan terang. Sebaliknya pun begitu, dengan pandangan salah, keseluruhannya pun bukan merupakan kamma bukan gelap-bukan terang, hanya kamma terang saja. 

Sedangkan kalau dikatakan JMB8 dibahas secara independen masing-masing unsurnya, maka terlihat jelas faktor-faktor tersebut hanya berkisar duniawi (lokiya) yang tentu saja berkenaan kamma terang yang menghindari kamma gelap(, dengan pengecualian pandangan benar dan perhatian benar, menurut saya).

Menjalankan moralitas dalam JMB8 sesempurna apa pun tanpa dilandasi pandangan benar, selamanya orang tidak akan mencapai pembebasan.


JM8 adalah Sang Jalan, bukan hasilnya, dg demikian merupakan 'latihan' yg tidak terlepas dari hal duniawi (lokiya). mengenai jenis kamma ke 4, mungkin masih cocok. tapi dikatakan melaksanakan JM8 adalah tanpa LDM, saya kurang setuju. bagi saya, usaha merealisasikan pencerahan pun didasari oleh LDM. namun walau didasari LDM, hal ini bukan masalah dan memang diperlukan. seperti ilustrasi Ajahn Chah, bahwa bila kita ingin membeli air kelapa, kita harus membeli bersama cangkangnya terlebih dahulu, tidak masalah selagi kita menyadarinya dan tidak melekati (cangkangnya).
Lepaskan keserakahan akan kesenangan. Lihatlah bahwa melepaskan dunia adalah kedamaian. Tidak ada sesuatu pun yang perlu kau raup, dan tidak ada satu pun yang perlu kau dorong pergi. ~ Buddha ~