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Offline Predator

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #90 on: 18 January 2013, 12:02:56 AM »
kelakuan yang gimana termasuk geblek ? apakah om Radi sering bergabung atua kopdar dengan warga DC, sehingga mengetahui persis kelakukan teman2 warga DC !
atau hanya menduga2 kemudian langsung vonis. walah kejam benar  ! :(

kejam benar?  saya  munjuk sebuah hidung seseorang ? saya hanya memberi contoh semata mengenai angka reputasi, kalau ada yg angka reputasinya tinggi tapi tidak melakukan ke-geblekan ya tidak perlu merasa divonis.

soal kopdar pernah ikut?, pernah.. dahulu ketemu warga dc dari orang yg aktif posting hingga entah kemana
susah dan senang, sakit dan sehat selalu silih berganti

Offline adi lim

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #91 on: 18 January 2013, 06:26:55 AM »
kejam benar?  saya  munjuk sebuah hidung seseorang ? saya hanya memberi contoh semata mengenai angka reputasi, kalau ada yg angka reputasinya tinggi tapi tidak melakukan ke-geblekan ya tidak perlu merasa divonis.

berarti memang benar ada yang geblek nih
yang ndak apa2lah, kalau  memang sudah terjadi

Quote
soal kopdar pernah ikut?, pernah.. dahulu ketemu warga dc dari orang yg aktif posting hingga entah kemana

mungkin sudah pada sibuk dengan urusan
jadi tidak aktif lagi.
Seringlah PancaKhanda direnungkan sebagai Ini Bukan MILIKKU, Ini Bukan AKU, Ini Bukan DIRIKU, bermanfaat mengurangi keSERAKAHan, mengurangi keSOMBONGan, Semoga dapat menjauhi Pandangan SALAH.

Offline Mas Tidar

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #92 on: 18 January 2013, 01:14:42 PM »
dimengerti om  ;D,
malas buat new reply jd-nya disatuin reply-nya

uwah, om tidar, post awal dengan editannya kok berbeda jauh  :))
setelah diedit saya gak setuju. alasannya sama seperti post2 sebelumnya.
Saccena me samo natthi, Esa me saccaparamiti

"One who sees the Dhamma sees me. One who sees me sees the Dhamma." Buddha

Offline a_w_p

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #93 on: 22 March 2013, 03:51:23 PM »
orang yang menjalan kan Dhamma & Vinaya secara utuh dpt disebut sbg Sangha.. pentahbisan maupun silsilah hanyalah formalitas seperti di sekolah..

krn menjadi sangha adalah untuk mencapai ariya sangha ataupun arahat (ini sama saja dengan ariya puggala), jadi mau dia keluar dari status ke-bikkhuan tapi tetap menjalankan kehidupan suci berdasarkan Dhamma & Vinaya maka secara tdk lgsg dia menjalani kehidupan Sangha (krn tujuannya sama yaitu ariya puggala)..

 _/\_

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #94 on: 22 March 2013, 04:00:41 PM »
orang yang menjalan kan Dhamma & Vinaya secara utuh dpt disebut sbg Sangha.. pentahbisan maupun silsilah hanyalah formalitas seperti di sekolah..

krn menjadi sangha adalah untuk mencapai ariya sangha ataupun arahat (ini sama saja dengan ariya puggala), jadi mau dia keluar dari status ke-bikkhuan tapi tetap menjalankan kehidupan suci berdasarkan Dhamma & Vinaya maka secara tdk lgsg dia menjalani kehidupan Sangha (krn tujuannya sama yaitu ariya puggala)..

 _/\_

itu kan menurut anda, tapi tidak demikian menurut Sang Buddha seperti yang tercatat dalam Vinaya Pitaka

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #95 on: 22 March 2013, 04:33:32 PM »
orang yang menjalan kan Dhamma & Vinaya secara utuh dpt disebut sbg Sangha.. pentahbisan maupun silsilah hanyalah formalitas seperti di sekolah..

krn menjadi sangha adalah untuk mencapai ariya sangha ataupun arahat (ini sama saja dengan ariya puggala), jadi mau dia keluar dari status ke-bikkhuan tapi tetap menjalankan kehidupan suci berdasarkan Dhamma & Vinaya maka secara tdk lgsg dia menjalani kehidupan Sangha (krn tujuannya sama yaitu ariya puggala)..

 _/\_
Jika demikian, apa gunanya proses pelatihan samanera dan penahbisan?
Lalu, bisa tahu dari mana bahwa seseorang memang menjalani kebhikkhuan demi tujuan pencapaian kesucian?

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #96 on: 22 March 2013, 04:34:50 PM »
orang yang menjalan kan Dhamma & Vinaya secara utuh dpt disebut sbg Sangha.. pentahbisan maupun silsilah hanyalah formalitas seperti di sekolah..

krn menjadi sangha adalah untuk mencapai ariya sangha ataupun arahat (ini sama saja dengan ariya puggala), jadi mau dia keluar dari status ke-bikkhuan tapi tetap menjalankan kehidupan suci berdasarkan Dhamma & Vinaya maka secara tdk lgsg dia menjalani kehidupan Sangha (krn tujuannya sama yaitu ariya puggala)..

 _/\_

Kutipan Mahaparinibbana Sutta...

"Ada kemungkinan, bahwa di antara kalian ada yang berpikir: 'Berakhirlah kata-kata Sang Guru; kita tidak mempunyai seorang Guru lagi.' Tetapi, Ananda, hendaknya tidak berpikir demikian. Sebab apa yang telah Aku ajarkan sebagai Dhamma dan Vinaya, Ananda, itulah kelak yang menajdi Guru-mu, ketika Aku Pergi."

---

Jika di dalam Vinaya, penabhisan bhikkhuni harus penabhisan dua sisi (penabhisan oleh sangha bhikkhu dan sangha bhikkhuni), maka dengan kondisi sekarang dimana sudah tidak ada sangha bhikkhuni (theravada) lagi. Maka Tafsirkan-lah apakah sesuai dengan Vinaya atau Tidak tentang Penabhisan bhikkhuni oleh Ajahn Brahmn ?
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
Semua yang berkondisi tdak kekal adanya, berjuanglah dengan penuh kewaspadaan

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #97 on: 22 March 2013, 06:50:41 PM »
itu kan menurut anda, tapi tidak demikian menurut Sang Buddha seperti yang tercatat dalam Vinaya Pitaka
masih status Bhikkhu, tapi memang tidak dibimbing lagi oleh Sangha yang menabhiskannya.

thanks  [at] adi lim infonyaa
bukan cuma menurut saya sih tp banyak org jg, buktinya dia msh status bikkhu kok, msh banyak yg panggil dia bhante. hee..

Jika demikian, apa gunanya proses pelatihan samanera dan penahbisan?
Lalu, bisa tahu dari mana bahwa seseorang memang menjalani kebhikkhuan demi tujuan pencapaian kesucian?
proses itu gunanya untuk memperoleh status ke-bikkhuan. :)
tahu dong, kita belajar dhamma untuk mencapai pencerahan kan? sama spt menjalani kehidupan suci, buat apa susah2 meninggalkan kehidupan duniawi untuk tujuan lain kecuali mencapai nibbana.

Kutipan Mahaparinibbana Sutta...

Tetapi, Ananda, hendaknya tidak berpikir demikian. Sebab apa yang telah Aku ajarkan sebagai Dhamma dan Vinaya, Ananda, itulah kelak yang menajdi Guru-mu, ketika Aku Pergi."
thanks rujukannya mewakili maksud saya :)

---

Jika di dalam Vinaya, penabhisan bhikkhuni harus penabhisan dua sisi (penabhisan oleh sangha bhikkhu dan sangha bhikkhuni), maka dengan kondisi sekarang dimana sudah tidak ada sangha bhikkhuni (theravada) lagi. Maka Tafsirkan-lah apakah sesuai dengan Vinaya atau Tidak tentang Penabhisan bhikkhuni oleh Ajahn Brahmn ?
mana saya tau.. tanya yg buat aja Buddha Gotama/bikkhu yg arahat yg sudah mengerti vinaya luar dalam, mgkn mereka tau apakah b*am msh pantas disebut bikkhu? wkwk disamping itu dia bikkhu yg menjalankan dhamma kok.
kl menurut saya itu hanyalah tradisi.. bisa saja dlm setiap kehidupan Buddha berbeda caranya.. krn semua yg berupa kata2 dan terdefinisi, bukan kebenaran tertinggi, tidaklah sempurna.

--
 [at] all thanks atas semua masukannya, saya hanya share, semoga diskusi ini menambah pengetahuan dhamma saya :)
 _/\_

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #98 on: 22 March 2013, 07:19:31 PM »

thanks  [at] adi lim infonyaa

bukan cuma menurut saya sih tp banyak org jg, buktinya dia msh status bikkhu kok, msh banyak yg panggil dia bhante. hee..


status bhikkhu bukan menurut suara terbanyak, baca vinaya pitaka supaya gak malu2in.

Quote
proses itu gunanya untuk memperoleh status ke-bikkhuan. :)
anda tidak konsisten, bukankah anda mengatakan penahbisan itu hanya formalitas saja? lalu kenapa sekarang anda berubah pikiran dengan mengatakan pelatihan samanera dan penahbisan perlu untuk memperoleh status kebhikkhuan?

Quote
tahu dong, kita belajar dhamma untuk mencapai pencerahan kan? sama spt menjalani kehidupan suci, buat apa susah2 meninggalkan kehidupan duniawi untuk tujuan lain kecuali mencapai nibbana.

begitu ya? kalau begitu mnugkin anda perlu membaca sutta AN 5:167, saya kasih contekannya sedikit deh

“Ada, Bhante, orang-orang yang hampa dari keyakinan yang telah meninggalkan keduniawian dari kehidupan rumah tangga menuju kehidupan tanpa rumah, bukan  karena keyakinan melainkan menghendaki pencarian penghidupan; mereka licik, munafik, penipu, gelisah, sombong, tinggi hati, banyak berbicara, mengoceh tanpa arah dalam pembicaraan mereka, tidak menjaga pintu-pintu indria mereka, makan berlebihan, tidak menekuni keawasan, tidak mempedulikan kehidupan pertapaan, tidak menghormati latihan, hidup mewah dan mengendur, para pelopor dalam hal kembali pada kebiasaan-kebiasaan lama, mengabaikan tugas keterasingan, malas, hampa dari kegigihan, berpikiran kacau, tidak memiliki pemahaman jernih, tidak terkonsentrasi, dengan pikiran mengembara, tidak bijaksana, bodoh. Ketika aku berbicara kepada mereka seperti demikian, mereka tidak dengan hormat menerima apa yang aku katakan.

Quote
thanks rujukannya mewakili maksud saya :)
mana saya tau.. tanya yg buat aja Buddha Gotama/bikkhu yg arahat yg sudah mengerti vinaya luar dalam, mgkn mereka tau apakah b*am msh pantas disebut bikkhu? wkwk disamping itu dia bikkhu yg menjalankan dhamma kok.
bisa dijelaskan definisi "dhamma" yg anda bawa itu?

Quote
kl menurut saya itu hanyalah tradisi.. bisa saja dlm setiap kehidupan Buddha berbeda caranya.. krn semua yg berupa kata2 dan terdefinisi, bukan kebenaran tertinggi, tidaklah sempurna.
Oh ya? bisakah anda menjelaskan cara dalam kehidupan Buddha yg lain yg anda katakan berbeda itu?


Offline kullatiro

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #99 on: 22 March 2013, 08:04:33 PM »
Ajahn Chah is one of the most
loved and revered figures in the
Buddhist world. Association with
his name confers privileges and
responsibilities, both spiritual and
material. It is no surprise then that
the elders of the Ajahn Chah
Sangha consider it their duty to
care for the integrity of the
lineage. For the Ajahn Chah Sangha
the crux of the problems leading
up to Ajahn Brahmavamso's
delisting was his determination to
follow his own highly controversial
agenda, without consultation and
contrary to the wishes of the
elders. The particular topic on his
agenda – the ceremony performed
in Perth on the 22 nd of October –
was an important but not the
crucial element.
One of the reasons that we have
found it difficult to respond to
matters surrounding that ceremony
has been our feeling that the issue
has been framed in a seriously
misleading way. It seems to us that
a number of factors have been
conflated that need to be dealt
with separately. In addition, the
delisting of Bodhinyana monastery
by the Ajahn Chah Sangha has been
presented on the web as a
patriarchal knee-jerk. The situation
of the siladharas in England has
been cited as a proof of our
unwillingness to give the
appropriate respect to women's
spiritual aspirations. We do not see
things in this way.
Here we will offer an explanation
on what we see as three related
but separate topics:
1. The event in Perth and its
repercussions
2. Bhikkhuni ordination
3. The Siladhara Order


1. The event in Perth and its
repercussions

In mid-October Ajahn
Brahmavamso informed Ven. Ajahn
Sumedho that he would conduct a
bhikkhuni ordination in Perth
before the end of the month. When
the news reached the larger Sangha
the reaction was one of surprise
and a deep dismay. The source of
these feelings was not outright opposition to bhikkhuni ordination
as such (in fact a number of our Western elders consider the
arguments supporting its legitimacy
to be well-founded), but the sense
that the way the ordination had
been arranged constituted a
serious betrayal of trust.

What made us feel that way? Well,
a meeting of the Western elders of
the Ajahn Chah Sangha had been
planned for December, and one of
the main items on the agenda was
to be the topic of bhikkhuni
ordination. This meeting was to be
hosted by Ajahn Brahmavamso and
his Sangha in Perth. Given the
importance the elders attached to
the coming discussion, we could
not understand why the ordination
should be rushed through before
our meeting. Why, we wondered,
could it not have been performed
after our meeting? Why despite a
long period of preparation were we
given so little notice? And why
should the preparations have been
deliberately concealed? We were to
be presented with a fait accompli.
A major and controversial
innovation, considered illegitimate
by the Thai Sangha, would be
performed unilaterally. The
message to us seemed to be that
this ordination was none of our
business. Our part was merely to
get used to it.
We still feel that we have not
received any satisfactory answers
to these questions. We do not
understand why Ajahn
Brahmavamso should have felt able
to act in this manner, given that
both verbally and in writing he had
affirmed that he would not do so.
In fact as recently as last year, in a
written response to one of our
elders, he had stated that he felt
hurt that anyone could believe that
he would consider such a move.
We have been told that Ajahn
Brahmavamso subsequently
changed his mind and that we –
should move on. – But, given the
emphasis we as bhikkhus place on
keeping our word, we do not
consider this to be an adequate
response.
To the Ajahn Chah Sangha elders
the issue was thus primarily one of
a disregard for the agreed standard
of seeking and gaining consent for
actions that affect the whole
group. In June 2009 the Ajahn
Chah Sangha at Wat Pa Pong
reaffirmed its willingness to
conform with the Thai Sangha
governing council's current
position: that bhikkhuni ordination
has ceased to exist and cannot be
legitimately revived. It was taken as
given that continued membership
of the group would be contingent
on upholding that resolution. In
our monastic culture, the
disrespect perceived in Ajahn
Brahmavamso's actions is, in other
words, profound. It is comparable
to a slap in the face.
Having decided to go ahead with
his plan come what may, Ajahn
Brahmavamso did so without
informing either his preceptor,
Somdet Buddhajahn, (currently
also the acting head of the Thai
Sangha), or Luang Por Liem, the
head of the Ajahn Chah Sangha.
The reason that that is significant
is that he was performing a
ceremony considered highly
controversial by the Thai Sangha,
and one bound to fail to receive
their acceptance.
Ajahn Brahmavamso had, over the
years, received permission to act
as a preceptor and had been
granted a royal ecclesiastical title –
these are no small things for a
Western monk to be honoured
with. These signify tremendous
recognition, trust and
responsibility. In acting as he did
Ajahn Brahmavamso seemed to
render them meaningless. It was
widely perceived as gross
ingratitude, particularly amongst
the Thai Sangha.

At the November 1 st meeting at
Wat Pah Pong, Ajahn Brahmavamso
was given the opportunity to
reconcile himself with the Sangha
of Wat Pah Pong, and by extension
the Thai Sangha at large, by
acknowledging the invalidity of the
ordination ceremony. Having been
formally presented with the option
three times, he still felt unable to
do so. The Sangha felt in turn that
it had no alternative but to delist
his monastery. As can be heard
clearly on the recording of the
meeting the resolution was by no
means a matter of 'a few grunts,'
as it has been widely represented,
but rather it was a rousing
agreement on the part of the 160
strong monastic assembly, with
Ajahn Brahmavamso himself
providing the solitary voice of
dissent. The resolution was not intended as a punishment but as a formal recognition of a parting ways. From this point on Ajahn Brahmavamso could no longer
consider himself to be representing
the Ajahn Chah community.


http://web.archive.org/web/20110815164403/http://www.forestsangha.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=385&Itemid=8


Sudah jelas kan atas status  AB.
« Last Edit: 22 March 2013, 08:18:38 PM by kullatiro »

Offline adi lim

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #100 on: 22 March 2013, 08:05:32 PM »

thanks  [at] adi lim infonyaa

bukan cuma menurut saya sih tp banyak org jg, buktinya dia msh status bikkhu kok, msh banyak yg panggil dia bhante. hee..

banyak orang belum tentu benar, malah banyak yang pandangan salah kok.

Quote
--
 [at] all thanks atas semua masukannya, saya hanya share, semoga diskusi ini menambah pengetahuan dhamma saya :)
 _/\_

semoga pengetahuan dhamma anda bukan patokan dari kondisi AB aja  ::)
« Last Edit: 22 March 2013, 08:08:27 PM by adi lim »
Seringlah PancaKhanda direnungkan sebagai Ini Bukan MILIKKU, Ini Bukan AKU, Ini Bukan DIRIKU, bermanfaat mengurangi keSERAKAHan, mengurangi keSOMBONGan, Semoga dapat menjauhi Pandangan SALAH.

Offline kullatiro

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Bhikkuni ordination view
« Reply #101 on: 22 March 2013, 09:33:06 PM »
2. Bhikkhuni ordination
There are reasonable arguments in
favor of bhikkhuni ordination, and
reasonable arguments against it.
Within our community opinions on
the matter vary. In the light of
this, the situation we currently find
ourselves in is a balancing act of
daunting proportions; on the one
side there is the need to be faithful
to our origins, and on the other
the need to be faithful to the time
and societies we live in.
As part of a larger tradition rooted
in Thailand, any changes of this
magnitude which we might wish to
initiate would require the consent
of the wider Sangha. In order not
to become ripped apart, all the
members of the Sangha body must
proceed in the same direction.
Since our lineage does not, at least
at present, formally accept the
legitimacy of Theravada bhikkhuni
ordination, we do not have the
authority to carry it out on our
own initiative, without breaking
that connection with our roots.
This view is not just restricted to
the Ajahn Chah Sangha. For
example, His Holiness the Dalai
Lama, at the conference he called
on bhikshuni ordination in 2007,
said he could not go ahead with
reinstating the bhikshuni order
without the full consent of the
Tibetan Sangha, despite the
unanimous agreement of the
conference that it should be.


The way we see it is that, in order
to effect significant change in the
status of practice opportunities for
women in the Theravada world, it
is not just a matter of going our
own way with sanctioning
bhikkhuni ordinations and hoping,
let alone expecting, that the wider
Sangha will just go along with that.
Rather the effect of such a move
would be to drive a wedge between
the Western branches of our
community and the other 300 or
so based in Thailand. From our
point of view it seems that there
would be very little positive result
from this orphaning of ourselves
from the roots of our community.

We realize that this is probably not
the view of many Buddhists in the
West, however, this kind of
severance is something we see as
being a damaging wound that
would compromise the spiritual
welfare of all women and men, lay
and monastic, that are a part of
this lineage of Dhamma practice.
The Sangha is an ancient
institution; it is the longest
surviving organization that still
operates under its original by laws.
It is also almost 1000 years since
the last recorded Theravada
bhikkhunis of the classical era
lived in Sri Lanka. For such a huge
change as this to take place, to
reinstate this venerable and rich
lineage of Dhamma practice with
the full approval and sanction of
the wider Sangha, it seems
reasonable to take the time to gain
a broad consensus.
Even though changes in such an
ancient organism must necessarily
occur slowly, it is also the case
that change can come. There are
high-ranking and esteemed elders
of the Thai Sangha, notably the
acting supreme patriarch, Somdet
Buddhajahn, who have made it
their business to investigate the
status and training of bhikkhunis.
It is also the intention for some of
those who attended this meeting of
Western abbots of the Wat Pah
Pong lineage to consult with
members of the governing body of
the Thai Sangha in order to discuss
further research on the topic of
the bhikkhuni lineage and
opportunities for renunciant
practice of women in Theravada
Buddhism.
The Theravada tradition is like a
gnarled and deeply rooted oak, yet
one that still bears abundant and
fertile seeds. The depth of its roots
and the thickness of its branches
are some of the reasons why it has
lasted for so long. If it was a
flimsy sapling, to change and mold
it would be easy but its ability to
withstand the vagaries of weather
and disease would be significantly
less. It is our concern to treat this
venerable entity with the respect
that it deserves and to tend its
seeds so that they too may flourish
and their potential be fulfilled.

http://web.archive.org/web/20110815164403/http://www.forestsangha.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=385&Itemid=8


Setelah membaca panjang lebar; disini membahas Pannatti Dhamma ( hukum berdasarkan kesepakatan bersama); ada nya konsensus, juga tekanan yang terjadi pada ajah chah sangha.


« Last Edit: 22 March 2013, 09:35:01 PM by kullatiro »

Offline a_w_p

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #102 on: 22 March 2013, 09:44:57 PM »
status bhikkhu bukan menurut suara terbanyak, baca vinaya pitaka supaya gak malu2in.
wow ternyata anda org yg sangat teoritis.. kira2 bagian mana ya? biar saya tambah pintar.. hee
Buddha sendiri dgn tdk konsisten menjelaskan nibbana itu "tidak bernoda", "tidak melemah", "tidak menghancurkan", "tidak dapat dihancurkan", "tanpa ketegangan", "tidak bermusuhan", "yang halus", "damai", "pantai seberang", "kebenaran", "yang senantiasa ada", "tujuan tertinggi", "kemurnian", "kebebasan", msh bnyak lg.
kenapa? krn Buddha tahu bahwa setiap org punya pikiran berbeda + pencapaian org yg berbeda + kata2 tidak bisa menggambarkan kebenaran dgn sempurna..

thanks sarannya haha saya tidak malu (disini diskusi kok, emg utk tukar pendapat) kan itu pendapat saya artinya pencapaian saya br segitu kl salah ya wajar krn saya msh belajar.
tp kl anda memaksa untuk menjelaskan bahwa pandangan yg km dpt dr membaca itu benar dan saya salah maka kita seperti org buta yg mencoba menjelaskan warna hijau kpd temannya yg jg buta, berarti anda sendiri blm mengerti bahwa setiap org punya pikiran berbeda krn kita msh kotor.
yg baca pitaka jg msh org yg blm mencapai pencerahan.. jd maaf saya belum bisa sepenuhnya menerima pernyataan anda..

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anda tidak konsisten, bukankah anda mengatakan penahbisan itu hanya formalitas saja? lalu kenapa sekarang anda berubah pikiran dengan mengatakan pelatihan samanera dan penahbisan perlu untuk memperoleh status kebhikkhuan?
konsisten dong :) formalitas kuliah s1>> dpt gelar s1, tahbis>> dpt gelar bikkhu. pentahbisan hanya untuk memperoleh status kebikkhuan (spt yg anda cantumkan dibawah sutta AN 5:167), bukan sifat kebikkhuan (sifat kebikkhuan didapat dr menjalani kehidupan suci dhamma n vinaya), lain kali yg teliti yaa :D

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begitu ya? kalau begitu mnugkin anda perlu membaca sutta AN 5:167, saya kasih contekannya sedikit deh

“Ada, Bhante, orang-orang yang hampa dari keyakinan yang telah meninggalkan keduniawian dari kehidupan rumah tangga menuju kehidupan tanpa rumah, bukan  karena keyakinan melainkan menghendaki pencarian penghidupan; mereka licik, munafik, penipu, gelisah, sombong, tinggi hati, banyak berbicara, mengoceh tanpa arah dalam pembicaraan mereka, tidak menjaga pintu-pintu indria mereka, makan berlebihan, tidak menekuni keawasan, tidak mempedulikan kehidupan pertapaan, tidak menghormati latihan, hidup mewah dan mengendur, para pelopor dalam hal kembali pada kebiasaan-kebiasaan lama, mengabaikan tugas keterasingan, malas, hampa dari kegigihan, berpikiran kacau, tidak memiliki pemahaman jernih, tidak terkonsentrasi, dengan pikiran mengembara, tidak bijaksana, bodoh. Ketika aku berbicara kepada mereka seperti demikian, mereka tidak dengan hormat menerima apa yang aku katakan.
bisa dijelaskan definisi "dhamma" yg anda bawa itu?
Oh ya? bisakah anda menjelaskan cara dalam kehidupan Buddha yg lain yg anda katakan berbeda itu?
bisa donk, dia ceramah ttg kebenaran/dhamma hee
tidak, saya bukan arahat, tp apa anda bisa menyatakan bahwa di jaman Buddha lain pasti sama? kl jwbnya blm tentu berarti bisa saja beda heheh

banyak orang belum tentu benar, malah banyak yang pandangan salah kok.
emg, jd apa hebatnya mempermasalahkan statusnya? yg blg msh/tidak jd bikkhu jg org2, bkan arahat heheh

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semoga pengetahuan dhamma anda bukan patokan dari kondisi AB aja  ::)
tenang, saya aja cm pinjam ga beli bukunya hee

saya simpulkan mksd posting saya adalah tidak penting bahwa jd bikkhu atau tidak, asal menjalankan dhamma dan vinaya, perumah tangga pun bisa, krn tujuan utama umat buddha adl nibbana.
Thanks atas jawabannya ya, semoga tidak menjadi salah paham dan membawa manfaat bagi kita  _/\_
« Last Edit: 22 March 2013, 09:48:38 PM by a_w_p »

Offline kullatiro

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The Siladhara Order (theravada modern nun)
« Reply #103 on: 22 March 2013, 09:54:10 PM »
3. The Siladhara Order
A shared goal, a specific
opportunity
In the case of the Siladhara and
the 'five points' our sense is that
there has been a
miscommunication regarding the
overall perspective of how the
established Bhikkhu Sangha seeks
to support a modern nuns' order,
as well as misinformation regarding
the 'five points.' However we do
feel that we share the concerns of
the petition in that we are aware of
the limited opportunities that there
are for women to train in
Dhamma-Vinaya, and also have a
wish to support women's
aspirations towards liberation.
The Bhikkhu Sangha has preserved
and sustained the Buddha's
dispensation for more than two
thousand years and we
acknowledge that it is its
responsibility to pass it on. As in
Theravada there is no consensus
on the re-establishment of the
bhikkhuni training, and no lineage
or present company of great
Theravada bhikkhuni teachers to
instruct newcomers, what we can
offer at this time has to operate
within the Sangha vehicle as it is
working in this day and age.
Of course anyone can practise
morality, meditation and
renunciation; but to belong to an
order of Buddhist nuns means
being accepted into the larger
monastic Sangha, of which the only
element that remains universally
recognized is the Bhikkhu Sangha.
Through being connected to such a
body, one has access to the
resources of monastic teachers,
and the trust and welcome of lay
people who have faith in the
established Sangha, as well to the
material requisites and
infrastructure of monasteries. This
set of opportunities underpins the
vehicle that has come to be known
as the 'Siladhara' (= those who
uphold virtue) training.
History of the Siladhara Order
In 1983, Ven. Ajahn Sumedho,
having received the permission of
the Thai Sangha that had
authorised him as Preceptor, gave
the Ten Precepts to a small group
of women who had already trained
under the Eight Precepts for more
than three years at Cittaviveka
Monastery in England. Ajahn
Sumedho's aim was to provide an
opportunity for women to train as
alms-mendicants within the
conventions that were held by the
Bhikkhu Sangha. Subsequently, he
asked that a training be developed
that would flesh out the basic
moral structure that the Ten
Precepts represent with details that
could support the nuns as an
autonomous Order. So a training
was developed that drew from the
Bhikkhuni-Vinaya in order to cover
issues that might occur for women,
as well as protocols that would
enable them to manage their own
affairs. Through the ensuing years
the training evolved through
discussions with the nuns,
consultations with Ven. Ajahn
Sumedho and the elders of his
community, and presentations to
Thai and Sri Lankan elders.
There was no intention or
authorisation however to establish
a Bhikkhuni Order, or any new
independent Sangha. Therefore the
relationship between the Siladhara
Order and the Bhikkhu Sangha was
held to be one in which the
siladhara would receive ordination
from an authorised bhikkhu
preceptor. Moreover the
convention of 'seniority' would
apply as a relational guide. This is
the case in the Bhikkhu and
Bhikkhuni Vinaya, and also defines
the relationship between the
Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni Sanghas as
set up in the Vinaya. Such an
understanding is basic to the
monastic form; it was there at the
beginning and was not a new
structure imposed upon the nuns.
Seniority isn't a power structure
The convention of seniority in
Theravada Buddhism acknowledges
that the Bhikkhu Sangha preceded
that of the nuns. In daily life it
covers matters of courtesy, like
who sits where in a formal group
gathering, who stands where in a
queue for the meal, and who pays
respects to whom in the act of
formal greeting. Seniority also
implies that the senior person in
the relationship is expected to look
after, encourage and otherwise
offer support to the junior.
However, the nuns may occupy
positions of authority both in
terms of teaching Dhamma, and of
training members of their nuns'
community. They are shareholders
of the charitable Trust that owns
and is legally responsible for
Amaravati and Cittaviveka. They
also occupy positions on the
Council of Elders that oversee
'Sangha business' in the group of
monasteries that were established
in the name of Ven. Ajahn
Sumedho.
It also has to be borne in mind
that the aims and structures of
Buddhist monastic life are not
designed to implement power over
each other, or power in terms of
management, rather they are
intended to establish the authority
and inner strength to combat the
fires of ignorance in one's own
mind. In this respect there is full
equality of opportunity for women
and men. That said, as
unenlightened beings, we recognize
that there also need to be
safeguards against the abuses of
position that may occur in the
course of community life.
The 'five points' and the future
In the last few years, there has
been growing divergence between
the Bhikkhu Sangha and the
Siladhara in terms of the
understanding of the relationship
between these two communities at
Amaravati and Cittaviveka. At the
same time, Ajahn Sumedho's recent
concern has been to firm up the
understanding of the terms under
which the Siladhara Order receives
its authorisation from the Bhikkhu
Sangha. Recognizing that he will
pass away in due course of time,
Ajahn Sumedho's intention is that
the Bhikkhu Sangha within these
monasteries should act as
guarantors of the Siladhara Order
in the future, and that steps should
be taken now to carry this through.
This is the origin of the 'five
points.' Please bear in mind that
these are not a manifesto of a
global vision for all women who
aspire to liberation, but a memo
that outlines what these particular
monasteries can offer. It seemed
important to get these clearly laid
down so that interested parties
would know from the outset what
they were committing to in terms
of the relationship to the Bhikkhu
Sangha. Then any aspirant could
make an informed choice as to
whether to get on board, or to
look for another vehicle.
We acknowledge that there may
have been failings in the way that
these five points were presented to
the nuns, and some of us sense
that this point will need to be
addressed in the future. One
agency that has been implemented
to improve the process of feedback
and consultation is that of a
'liaison bhikkhu' who should be
acceptable and respected by the
nuns and act as a channel of
communication whenever
dissonances arise in each dual-
gender community. The intention is
to continue to develop ways of
improvement, this being the
principle whereby the Buddha
established the Vinaya.
One of Ven. Ajahn Chah's phrases
about the mode and environment
of Dhamma-practice was that it
should be 'good enough' for
enlightenment. Whatever the
feelings and views that may be
aroused when a conservative Asian
contemplative tradition meets the
psychological zeitgeist of the
modern West, our intention has
always been to offer something
'good enough' – something both
immediate and workable. Still this
is no small matter. The Siladhara
Order depends on the commitment
of women of integrity to make it a
lived-in reality, and we feel that
the efforts and results of the nuns'
practice has been seriously
understated in the articles that
have been generated around this
topic. This is unjust, particularly in
the light of the rigor with which
they apply themselves to their
training.
Meanwhile, the Siladhara Order is
currently sending out a branch to
America at the same time as it is
receiving positive comments from
the renowned bhikkhu-scholar P.
A. Payutto and the acting head of
the Thai Sangha, Somdet
Buddhajahn. We hope that, modest
as the origins of the Order have
been, it may yet spread wherever
there is interest in the Buddha's
teachings and be a source of light
for both East and West.


http://web.archive.org/web/20110815164403/http://www.forestsangha.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=385&Itemid=8

sudah jelas ini adalah Rintisan; karena kurang nya khanti menghanncurkan jerih payah yg ada.
« Last Edit: 22 March 2013, 09:57:02 PM by kullatiro »

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Re: AJAHN BRAHM kontroversi
« Reply #104 on: 22 March 2013, 10:09:41 PM »
Ini juga kontroversial:

Ajahn Brahm for Sale
"Holmes once said not to allow your judgement to be biased by personal qualities, and emotional qualities are antagonistic to clear reasoning."
~ Shinichi Kudo a.k.a Conan Edogawa