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Offline naviscope

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Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« on: 07 April 2009, 09:05:41 AM »
buat rekan2 theravada yang ogah merayakan cheng beng dengan bakar-bakaran kertas sembahyang dan sesajen untuk leluhur. .ini ada artikel yang sangat bagus:
artikel dibawah ini mendukung 100% bahwa bakar-bakar kertas sembahyang dan sesajen itu sesuai dengan ajaran Sang Buddha, berdasarkan Sutta Pali

http://sasanarakkha.org/talks/2003/04/cheng-beng.shtml

Cheng Beng
By Ven Aggacitta
Venue: TIMS
 


Since it is the Cheng Beng season, Ven. Aggacitta checks the suttas to see if the custom of making offerings to departed relatives is in accordance with the Buddha’s teaching.


Making Offerings to Departed Relatives

Some people say that Buddhists should not offer food to their departed relatives as it is not a Buddhist practice. Instead they should invite the Sangha, make offerings to the Sangha and then transfer merits to the departed relatives. Is this true? Let us investigate by scrutinising some relevant suttas.

Also an Ancient Indian Custom

The tradition of offering food at the graves of ancestors was practised even during the time of the Buddha. There is a story in the Vinaya Pitaka (Pac 40) of a bhikkhu who, being very austere in his practice, used only the shrouds of corpses for his robes and ate only food offerings found in the charnel ground, a sort of cemetery where corpses were left to decompose. Naturally, the food offered by relatives to the dead was good food, so he looked healthy.

Rumours circulated that he might have consumed human flesh! When the Buddha heard the complaint, he set the rule that food must be offered to the monks before they could eat it. That is why monks have to wait for food to be offered to them before they can consume it, not because they are high and mighty and need to be served. So, during the Buddha’s time, it was already an Indian custom to make food offerings to departed relatives.

Offerings Include Food and Drinks

The practice of making offerings to departed relatives is also discussed in Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31) in the section expounding the five responsibilities of children. The fifth responsibility is to continually make offerings to departed relatives.

Making offerings here could mean offering food to departed relatives. It is not explicitly mentioned in the Sutta that they must invite the Sangha for dana and then transfer merits to the departed relatives, although this is suggested by the commentary. Hence, we cannot say unequivocally that offering food to the departed relatives is not a Buddhist practice.

The Tirokutta Sutta (Khp 7) describes the circumstances of departed ones with special reference to their living relatives. We recite this when invited for dana on the occasion of a family bereavement. The sutta states that living relatives should make offerings of food and drinks to the departed ones. In this same sutta, there is also a reference to offerings made to the Sangha.

In Janussoni Sutta (AN 10.177), a brahmin named Janussoni asked the Buddha, “Master Gotama, we brahmins give dana and do things in full faith, thinking, ‘May this dana reach our departed relatives. May the departed relatives make use of this dana.’ Master Gotama, can this dana reach our departed relatives? Can the departed relatives make use of the dana?”

The Buddha’s answer was: “If there is an opportunity, they can. If there is no opportunity, then they cannot” He then clarified thus:
conditions of non-opportunity:
those who break their precepts and are reborn in hell

those who break their precepts and are reborn as animals

those who keep precepts and are reborn as humans

those who keep precepts and are reborn as devas

condition of opportunity: those who break their precepts and are reborn in the realm of ghosts.

It is clear here that dana can only reach the deceased if he is reborn as a ghost.

In this sutta, we learn three important points:
The dana given by the living to the deceased cannot reach him if he is born in hell, in the animal kingdom, in the human world or even in heaven.

The dana can only reach the deceased if he is born in the realm of ghosts.

Dana here has to specifically mean offering food and drinks to the departed relatives since this dana cannot be received by a departed one reborn as a deva. It cannot mean transference of merit because this other type of dana can reach a departed relative born as a deva, who benefits by feeling honoured (as we shall see later).

Contemporary Findings

According to a parapsychology study in Myanmar carried out about twenty years ago, some children could remember their past lives as hungry ghosts. They remembered consuming filth such as sputum, faeces and urine. They were able to eat discarded food but needed only a single grain of rice to be full.

When I was young, I often fell sick due to supernatural causes. I could not be cured (by Western medicine) until my mother went to the temple to consult the medium and then made offerings to the unseen beings at the roadside. This custom is practised in Burma too.

These and many other contemporary experiences seem to suggest that some ghosts or unseen beings can actually partake of food and drink. Some people even say that these unseen beings do so by “sucking” the qi (essence) of the offerings; that’s why food that has already been offered tastes rather flat!

Offerings to Devas as well

In Pattakamma Sutta (AN 4.61) the Buddha said to Anathapindika that a noble disciple who acquired his income through righteous means should spend it by making five types of offerings (pañcabali.m kattaa hoti). These are offerings to
living relatives

guests

departed relatives

the king (government)

devas.

There is also a verse in Ratana Sutta (Khp 6) that urges deities to protect humans because they make offerings to them day and night.

The above references bring us to the following conclusion: a Buddhist is actually encouraged by the Buddha to make offerings to departed relatives as well as to devas.

Dedication of Offerings to Devas

In the story on the making of Pataliputta village found in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (DN 16), the Buddha advised people to offer dana to virtuous monks and dedicate the offering to the devas there. We do the same when we are invited for dana in a new house. These devas, being honoured and cherished, will honour and cherish the occupants of the house in return.

This shows that a smart person who invites virtuous and restrained Sangha members for dana and then dedicates the offering to the guardian devas in the dwelling can be protected and assisted by the devas. So, dedicating one’s merits to devas is also a practice encouraged by the Buddha.

Sharing of Merits

We should take note that the actual procedure of “transferring” or “sharing” merits is not mentioned in all the suttas I have referred to so far, nor in any other sutta in the Pali Canon that I am currently aware of. “Should dedicate the offering” (dakkhi.namaadise) seems to be the nearest hint found in the Pataliputta story (DN 16).

Conditions for Efficacy

According to the Commentary to the Tirokutta Sutta, however, a few factors decide whether the merits thus dedicated can be received by the departed relative:
The donor must think of the deceased and dedicate the dana to the deceased.

The dana recipient must be virtuous.

The deceased must rejoice in the dedication of merits (e.g. by saying, “Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!”).

The commentary argues that the merits done by one cannot be transferred to another because the law of kamma states that beings are the owners of their own kamma. However, by rejoicing in another’s meritorious deed, one is creating wholesome kamma for oneself. In the case of a departed one reborn as a deprived ghost, rejoicing in the dana dedicated to him can give immediate relief and other benefits, particularly if the dana recipient is virtuous.

A Buddhist son may choose to have a “pure Buddhist” funeral for his departed Taoist father. Now, even if the deceased was aware of the dedication of the Sanghadana, he might not be happy or rejoice because the funeral was not conducted in the Taoist tradition. So, according to the above conditions, he cannot receive the merits, can he?

On the other hand, if the funeral was conducted according to his personal preference, do you think he would be happy? If he rejoiced in his family’s act of filial duty as recommended by the Buddha in Sigalovada Sutta, Pattakamma Sutta and Tirokutta Sutta, would he be creating wholesome kamma that could also give immediate benefits? Think about it.

Other Ways of Sharing Merits

Apart from the dedication of offerings to devas as mentioned in the suttas, and to departed ones as explained in the commentaries, there may also be other ways of sharing merits, as the experiences of contemporary Buddhists imply. There is one real-life story (see The Story of Old Man Tiow by Sichitra Ronruen) that happened in Thailand not too long ago. An irreligious old man was killed and landed in hell. But because of his son, who was a meditating monk, he came back to the human world for a new lease of life.

How did the monk save his father? He did not do any dana. All he did was meditate then dedicate the merits to his father. And the father was not even aware of the dedication, not to mention rejoicing in it. But he was saved anyhow. This does not seem to be in line with the commentary’s conditions for the efficacy of sharing merits. How can we interpret this apparent inconsistency?

According to Luang Phor Jaren (Phra Rajsuddhiñanamongkol, author of The Law of Kamma), after meditation, one’s mind is very clear and powerful. Hence, even people who are alive can receive merits that are dedicated to them after meditation, although they may not even be aware of the sharing.

So, it seems that we can transfer the merits not only from dana but also from any wholesome act such as meditation.

Based on the above investigations into the suttas, I would like to propose the following interpretation with respect to offerings to departed relatives during Cheng Beng. We can make two types of offerings: the direct offering of food and drinks to the departed ones, and the dana to the Sangha followed by sharing of merits.

Thus the practice of making offerings to our departed relatives during Cheng Beng is a good custom which we should uphold.

 _/\_
« Last Edit: 07 April 2009, 09:07:45 AM by naviscope »
Tinggalkan masa lalu, lepaskan beban akan masa depan, tidak terikat dengan yang sekarang maka kamu akan merasakan kedamain batin.

Leave the past alone, do not worry about the future, do not cling to the present and you will achieve calm.

Offline huihui

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #1 on: 07 April 2009, 09:19:13 AM »
 |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-) |-)

Offline markosprawira

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #2 on: 07 April 2009, 05:23:09 PM »
dear bro,

Jadi penasaran

Quote
artikel dibawah ini mendukung 100% bahwa bakar-bakar kertas sembahyang dan sesajen itu sesuai dengan ajaran Sang Buddha, berdasarkan Sutta Pali

sementara artikel itu bilang :
Quote
Since it is the Cheng Beng season, Ven. Aggacitta checks the suttas to see if the custom of making offerings to departed relatives is in accordance with the Buddha’s teaching

dan kalau saya lihat, ga ada menyebut2 mengenai kertas sembahyang loh....

Pun sesajen pun apa dulu?
kalau anda memberi persembahan seperti kepala babi, ayam komplit sampe jeroannya, yg dipesan dahulu -> disini anda akan masuk ke Sila pertama

Pesan dari tulisan diatas adalah :

1. Betul bhw kita harus memberi persembahan namun itupun hanya mencapai jika sanak saudara tidak terlahir sebagai mahluk niraya, binatang, manusia atau dewa.
Dan hanya bisa pada setan/peta, lebih tepatnya yaitu paradattupajivika peta. Peta lainpun tidak bisa menerima hasil persembahan

2. Cara lainnya untuk memberikan persembahan adalah berdana. Justru ini menjadi penekanan yg sangat penting dalam persembahan

Jadi saya tidak melihat ada menyebutkan mengenai kertas sembahyang loh

Hendaknya kita bisa lebih bijaksana dalam menyingkapi Sutta Pali, bukan hanya dari satu atau beberapa sutta yg mendukung lalu disesuaikan dengan konsep pikiran kita

Jadi hendaknya kita bisa melihat pada keseluruhan.....

Hendaknya bro naviscope bisa lebih berhati-hati dalam mengartikan Buddha Dhamma

semoga bermanfaat

metta

Offline sumana

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #3 on: 08 September 2009, 08:41:42 PM »
satu lagi produk sampling error..............   :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: #-o #-o
Kelahiran telah terjadi, sukha dan dukha silih berganti. Kehidupan tidak kekal, menggapai pembebasan terakhir (nibbana).

Offline Kelana

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #4 on: 08 September 2009, 09:24:09 PM »
Dalam artikel dan acuan suttanya tidak ada anjuran bakar kertas uang tapi intinya adalah  "sharing merits" atau pattidana atau pelimpahan jasa. Saya yakin Ven. Aggacitta tidak memasukkan upacara bakar kertas sebagai bagian dari Cheng Beng yang sedang dibahasnya, tetapi lebih mengutamakan ajaran balas budi yang terkandung dalam Cheng Beng yang di lakukan dengan cara pelimpahan jasa.
GKBU
 
_/\_ suvatthi hotu


- finire -

Offline markosprawira

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #5 on: 09 September 2009, 12:17:49 PM »
Dalam artikel dan acuan suttanya tidak ada anjuran bakar kertas uang tapi intinya adalah  "sharing merits" atau pattidana atau pelimpahan jasa. Saya yakin Ven. Aggacitta tidak memasukkan upacara bakar kertas sebagai bagian dari Cheng Beng yang sedang dibahasnya, tetapi lebih mengutamakan ajaran balas budi yang terkandung dalam Cheng Beng yang di lakukan dengan cara pelimpahan jasa.

beda khan seperti yang disebut diatas, bro?  ;D

Quote
artikel dibawah ini mendukung 100% bahwa bakar-bakar kertas sembahyang dan sesajen itu sesuai dengan ajaran Sang Buddha, berdasarkan Sutta Pali


Offline marcedes

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #6 on: 09 September 2009, 06:07:45 PM »
jangan bakar bakar kertas lah...kasihan bumi ini yg sudah semakin panas...
mending rajin baca sutra bro navis...biar bisa ga tua ga mati....hehehe ( nyindir mode on )

tapi kita ada kesamaan kok, sama - sama bodoh bahasa inggris.
Ada penderitaan,tetapi tidak ada yang menderita
Ada jalan tetapi tidak ada yang menempuhnya
Ada Nibbana tetapi tidak ada yang mencapainya.

TALK LESS DO MOREEEEEE !!!

Offline naviscope

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #7 on: 09 September 2009, 06:15:42 PM »
^
^
jiakakaka...

bahasa inggris, a little little sech i can lah... ^^

hush, main nyindir2, klu akhir bulan, tanggal2 gantung, ga bole sindir yach, biasa nya sech pd tanggal segitu lg sensi, belum gajian soalnya...

klu sekarang mah, gpp,
saya mah asik2 j... wakakaka....

_/\_
Tinggalkan masa lalu, lepaskan beban akan masa depan, tidak terikat dengan yang sekarang maka kamu akan merasakan kedamain batin.

Leave the past alone, do not worry about the future, do not cling to the present and you will achieve calm.

Offline marcedes

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #8 on: 10 September 2009, 12:55:01 PM »
hehehe, ini sebelum liburan juga saya mau cari orderan biar kang tau byk masuk...
biar liburan ada duit...

liburan no duit = tersiksa...
dan tersiksa = dukkha...
hehehe

yah bahasa inggris saya juga gitu.
little little i can....

dan yang paling parah kalau sudah banyak kata aneh...terus dalam 1 kalimat ada 1 kata saja misalkan ! [at] #!%!# [at] !#!  COOK   ! [at] #! [at] #!....
biasanya saya artikan memasak entah apa...
Ada penderitaan,tetapi tidak ada yang menderita
Ada jalan tetapi tidak ada yang menempuhnya
Ada Nibbana tetapi tidak ada yang mencapainya.

TALK LESS DO MOREEEEEE !!!

Offline Nevada

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #9 on: 10 September 2009, 01:33:46 PM »
Saya adalah Theravadin, tapi masih menjalankan tradisi pelimpahan jasa khas Tionghoa kok: "bakar kertas".
Gak semua Theravadin antipati terhadap tradisi ini kok.
Kalau suatu tradisi itu bisa dipertahankan untuk kebaikan, maka sudah menjadi tanggung jawab moral bagi kita untuk tetap melestarikannya.

:)

Offline markosprawira

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #10 on: 10 September 2009, 04:04:42 PM »
Yup, saya juga tetap jalanin tradisi, sampe sembayangannya juga (walau udah berhasil bujuk mama utk ga pesen ayam dan berbagai daging tapi langsung beli saat itu juga)

tapi bukan berarti melegalisir pernyataan :
Quote
artikel dibawah ini mendukung 100% bahwa bakar-bakar kertas sembahyang dan sesajen itu sesuai dengan ajaran Sang Buddha, berdasarkan Sutta Pali

tetap setuju ama pelestarian tradisi, apalagi tradisi yg notabene bermanfaat  :D

Offline marcedes

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #11 on: 10 September 2009, 07:14:50 PM »
Yup, saya juga tetap jalanin tradisi, sampe sembayangannya juga (walau udah berhasil bujuk mama utk ga pesen ayam dan berbagai daging tapi langsung beli saat itu juga)

tapi bukan berarti melegalisir pernyataan :
Quote
artikel dibawah ini mendukung 100% bahwa bakar-bakar kertas sembahyang dan sesajen itu sesuai dengan ajaran Sang Buddha, berdasarkan Sutta Pali

tetap setuju ama pelestarian tradisi, apalagi tradisi yg notabene bermanfaat  :D
tapi kalau udah terlanjur pesan d nikmati ya? terutama khas babi bakar....
Ada penderitaan,tetapi tidak ada yang menderita
Ada jalan tetapi tidak ada yang menempuhnya
Ada Nibbana tetapi tidak ada yang mencapainya.

TALK LESS DO MOREEEEEE !!!

Offline Kelana

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #12 on: 10 September 2009, 07:18:11 PM »
Dalam artikel dan acuan suttanya tidak ada anjuran bakar kertas uang tapi intinya adalah  "sharing merits" atau pattidana atau pelimpahan jasa. Saya yakin Ven. Aggacitta tidak memasukkan upacara bakar kertas sebagai bagian dari Cheng Beng yang sedang dibahasnya, tetapi lebih mengutamakan ajaran balas budi yang terkandung dalam Cheng Beng yang di lakukan dengan cara pelimpahan jasa.

beda khan seperti yang disebut diatas, bro?  ;D

Quote
artikel dibawah ini mendukung 100% bahwa bakar-bakar kertas sembahyang dan sesajen itu sesuai dengan ajaran Sang Buddha, berdasarkan Sutta Pali



yahh.. begitu deh yang saya baca  ;D
GKBU
 
_/\_ suvatthi hotu


- finire -

Offline Wirajhana

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #13 on: 23 February 2011, 09:34:46 PM »
buat rekan2 theravada yang ogah merayakan cheng beng dengan bakar-bakaran kertas sembahyang dan sesajen untuk leluhur. .ini ada artikel yang sangat bagus:
artikel dibawah ini mendukung 100% bahwa bakar-bakar kertas sembahyang dan sesajen itu sesuai dengan ajaran Sang Buddha, berdasarkan Sutta Pali

http://sasanarakkha.org/talks/2003/04/cheng-beng.shtml

Cheng Beng
By Ven Aggacitta
Venue: TIMS
 


Since it is the Cheng Beng season, Ven. Aggacitta checks the suttas to see if the custom of making offerings to departed relatives is in accordance with the Buddha’s teaching.


Making Offerings to Departed Relatives

[..]

 _/\_

Dear all,
ttg sutta yg di sebutkan di tread di atas:
1.Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), tidak saya temukan offering pada leluhur, kecuali mempertahankan kehormatan keluarga dan juga mengatur upacara setelah wafat

2. pada Janussoni Sutta, caranya tidak disebutkan sama sekali.

3. Tikoruda sutta malah spesifik menyatakan spt ini
Paragraph ke-7 menyatakan
"TIDAK ADA PERDAGANGAN, Tidak juga pertukaran uang emas:. Mahluk halus
sanak-saudara yang telah meninggal itu
Hidup di sana dari pemberian yang diberikan di sinidan TIDAK ADA UANG
BEREDAR..."

Paragrap no 11 menyatakan
"[..]Bukan berkabung jenis apa pun, menolong Mereka yang telah meninggal,
yang sanak-saudaranya tetap

(Tidak bisa menolong mereka dengan bertindak) demikian.

Paragraph no 12 MENYATAKAN CARA yang bisa dipake UNTUK MENOLONG:

"Tetapi ketika persembahan ini diberikan Dan ditempatkan dengan baik di
dalam Sangha Bagi mereka, maka dana itu bias berguna lamaBagi mereka di
masa depan dan juga segera."

4. Pada Pattakamma Sutta (AN 4.61), spesifik saya temukan spt ini saja:
Again, householder, wit h the rightfully amassed wealth, by arousing effort, toiling with his own hands, while sweat was dripping, the noble disciple, makes fivefold offerings such as to relations, guests, the departed, the king and the gods. This is his third achievement, restoration of actions within his sphere.

namun caranya tidak disebutkan sama sekali.

5. juga di sebutkan ratana sutta, namun caranya tidak disebutkan sama sekali.

6 juga di parinibanna sutta, namun caranya tidak disebutkan sama sekali

Namun demikian jika diperhatikan urutan kemunculan sutta2 tersebut maka Tirokuda Sutta, merupakan sutta yg ada di tempat paling awal.

Di sutta itu disebutkan tatacara pelaksanaan yg benar seperti apa.

Demikian pula tatacara itu dapat dilihat ketika Sariputta menyelamatkan ibunya dari kehidupan lalunya yang terlahir menjadi Peta (mahluk Halus/setan) dan Beliau melakukan pelimpahan Jasa atas nama sang Ibu di: II. 2 PENJELASAN MENGENAI CERITA PETI (Peta wanita) IBU SARIPUTTA THERA (Sariputtattheramatupetivatthuvannana) dan juga di BAB UBBARI [Ubbarivagga], II. 1 PENJELASAN MENGENAI CERITA PETA SAMSARAMOCAKA [Samsaramocakapetavatthuvannana]

Semua disampaikan bagaimana cara melaksanakannya

Jadi, menurut saya..adalah benar persembahan dapat disampaikan kepada/untuk [leluhur, deva dan peta (syarat kondisi sesuai ketentuan)] namun pelaksanaan atau cara-cara melakukannya adalah seperti yang dilakukan oleh raja bimbisara [tirokudda sutta, peta/i vatthuvannana]

Kenapa ini penting saya sampaikan?..

Walaupun bukan etnis tionghoa, saya dahulunya berasal dari Hindu-Bali dan mempunyai problem yg sama juga

Sampai dengan saat ini saya belum menemukan rujukan lain yg dapat saya pakai sebagai dasar untuk dapat ikut dalam tata upacara "persembahyangan" spt yg dilakukan di merajan/sanggah para orang2 bali [tentunya diluar persembahan yg melanggar sila ke-1]

Demikian dan mohon saran, petunjuk dan pendapat [mohon disertakan bukti suttanya sebagai pendukung]

salam

Offline Indra

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Re: Ceng Beng - Theravada Version
« Reply #14 on: 23 February 2011, 09:58:40 PM »
tradisi Cengbeng jelas tidak ada dalam Theravada. Tetapi jika dikatakan bahwa Cengbeng tidak sesuai dengan Theravada, hal ini tentu akan melukai sebagian etnis tionghoa yang menjalani tradisi ini, sehingga akhirnya muncullah upaya mencocok2kan tradisi cengbeng dgn theravada. hal ini saya kira tidak ada masalah, sepanjang tidak melakukan hal-hal yang bertentangan dengan ajaran Theravada.

saya sepakat bahwa cara yg tepat adalah sesuai dengan apa yang diajarkan Sang Buddha kepada Raja Bimbisara. tapi kalau sulit untuk meninggalkan tradisi karena adalah tidak baik menentang anggota keluarga yang lebih tua, mungkin jalan terbaik adalah dengan mengkombinasikannya. lakukan saja kedua2nya.


 

anything