karma itu kenyataan atau teori ?

[Sumedho]

  terlewat toh. tapi sebenarnay sudah tersirat dari postingan2x yg sbelumnya

Gini, OD adalah OD. HK adalah HK.

dari OD ada pola, adanya ini maka adanya itu. Di HK ada kamma, ada vipaka. Itulah persamaannya yg merupakan interseksi-nya.

Interseksi itu bukan OD juga bukan HK. OD tidak didalam HK. HK tidak didalam OD.

[Suchamda]

Di HK ada kamma, ada vipaka. Itulah persamaannya yg merupakan interseksi-nya.

Kamma adalah cetana, kehendak.
Ada suatu kehendak karena ada sebab-sebabnya. Dari ini maka muncul itu (-->dalil DO).
Karena ada sebab-sebabnya maka muncul akibat (vipaka). (--> masih mengikuti dalil DO)

DO = Dependent Origination = Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan.

Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan yang berlaku dalam tataran fisik, disebut utu niyama.
------------------(idem)--------------------------------------- tataran biologis, disebut bija niyama.
------------------(idem)--------------------------------------- tataran kejiwaan, disebut citta niyama.
------------------(idem)--------------------------------------- tataran hukum2 dhamma, disebut dhammaniyama
------------------(idem)--------------------------------------- tataran fenomena agregat mahluk hidup, disebut kamma niyama.

Jelaslah bahwa fenomena2 yang disebut sebagai kamma itu berlandaskan penalaran yang terdapat dalam hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan.

Interseksi itu bukan OD juga bukan HK. OD tidak didalam HK. HK tidak didalam OD.

Rasanya, dengan menggunakan analogi diagram venn yg saling berpotongan ini malah membingungkan karena anda tidak memberikan penjelasan batasan2nya. Apakah mau dilanjutkan, ataukah anda memberi dasar argumentasi yang lain?

[Sumedho]

Mungkin ini titik temu perbedaan pendapat kita. *loh ? ketemu perbedaanya maksudnya*

Buat saya, DO itu bukan sekadar "Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan" saja yang bisa diaplikasikan pada semua hal. Tetapi DO adalah linking dari 12 komponen didalamnya.

Jadi buat saya DO tidak bisa dijadikan sekadar "Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan" SAJA dengan disregard 12 komponen didalamnya.

DO adalah Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan antara 12 komponen itu.

utk kemudahan bicara, kita bisa katakan OD adalah "Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan." tetapi esensinya bukan seperti itu.

Rasanya, dengan menggunakan analogi diagram venn yg saling berpotongan ini malah membingungkan karena anda tidak memberikan penjelasan batasan2nya. Apakah mau dilanjutkan, ataukah anda memberi dasar argumentasi yang lain?

diagram venn itu hanya representatif saja maksud dari penjelasan. Dimanakah batasannya, itu tidak penting. Inti poin dari penjelasan itu adalah HK tidak didalam DO ataupun DO didalam HK sehingga DO bukan dasar HK

[williamhalim]

Maaf frens, nyela dikit nih, ada yg agak membingungkan, sbb:

Kamma adalah cetana, kehendak.
Ada suatu kehendak karena ada sebab-sebabnya. Dari ini maka muncul itu (-->dalil DO).
Karena ada sebab-sebabnya maka muncul akibat (vipaka). (--> masih mengikuti dalil DO)

Apakah maksudnya adalah: "Kehendak (cetana)" adalah sebuah akibat (vipaka) dari sebab2 tertentu?

::

[Suchamda]

diagram venn itu hanya representatif saja maksud dari penjelasan. Dimanakah batasannya, itu tidak penting. Inti poin dari penjelasan itu adalah HK tidak didalam DO ataupun DO didalam HK sehingga DO bukan dasar HK

Mari kita usut diskusi kita dari awal.
Saya mengatakan DO adalah dasar dari HK. Selanjutnya anda mengatakan tidak. Dan kemudian saya minta penjelasan anda mengapa mengatakan tidak (disela-sela itu anda minta saya memberi argumentasi saya dan sudah saya berikan). Kemudian anda menjelaskan berdasarkan representasi diagram venn. Tapi dalam memberikan representasi itu anda tidak menjelaskan alasan2nya. Apakah tidak penting kalau saya menanyakan apa batasan2nya yg direpresentasikan dalam lingkaran venn tersebut?

Pada quote di atas pun anda sekali lagi tidak memberikan penjelasan argumentatif tapi hanya membuat assertion (pernyataan yg dipaksakan) bahwa pokoknya begitu ("HK tidak didalam DO ataupun DO didalam HK sehingga DO bukan dasar HK").

Coba tunjukkan alasan bahwa saya harus menerima kebenaran assertion anda?

[Sumedho]

hmmm, coba deh baca ulang lagi.....

Kan sudah diberikan penjelasan hubungan DO dan HK. ada similarity which is "sebab akibat" yg merupakan intersectionnya.

Sudah dijelaskan loh, kalo DO itu bukan hanya sebab akibat, tetapi ada 12 komponen itu *for the third time, kalo nga salah*. Itu argumen yg cukup jelas juga.

DO tanpa 12 komponennya itu, bukan lah DO.
DO bukan dasar HK maupun niyama.
Do menjelaskan 12 komponen dan linkingnya.

koq jadi repot yah .

[Suchamda]

Buat saya, DO itu bukan sekadar "Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan" saja yang bisa diaplikasikan pada semua hal. Tetapi DO adalah linking dari 12 komponen didalamnya.

Jadi buat saya DO tidak bisa dijadikan sekadar "Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan" SAJA dengan disregard 12 komponen didalamnya.

DO adalah Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan antara 12 komponen itu.

utk kemudahan bicara, kita bisa katakan OD adalah "Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan." tetapi esensinya bukan seperti itu.

Wah rupanya anda belum benar-benar memahami esensi dari DO yg merupakan Law of Conditionality ini. Namun melihatnya sebagai rumusan kaku.

Dari pernyataan anda "DO adalah Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan antara 12 komponen itu" sepertinya tersirat dari jawaban anda bahwa agar suatu fenomena dapat dikatakan berlangsung menurut DO adalah bahwa 12 hubungan itu harus terjadi secara berturutan?.

Numpang nanya, apa dasar anda mengatakan bahwa ke-12 komponenya itu harus ditafsirkan secara demikian?

Selanjutnya, pernyataan anda : "Jadi buat saya DO tidak bisa dijadikan sekadar "Hukum Sebab Akibat yang saling bergantungan" SAJA dengan disregard 12 komponen didalamnya" sebenarnya hanyalah asumsi anda belaka, karena saya tidak bermaksud untuk mendisregard ke-12 komponen di dalamnya. Tapi saya mengatakannya demikian singkat karena saya anggap anda sudah memahami esensi dari Hukum Sebab Akibat yang Saling Bergantungan itu.

Ini saya kutipkan tulisan dari buku Dependent Origination:The Buddhist Law of Conditionalit , P.A.Payutto (Venerable Phra Dhammapitaka) :
Pg.6
In the Abhidhamma texts and Commentaries the principle of Dependent Origination is also known as paccayakara, referring to inter-dependent nature of things.
...It has no beginning or ending. Putting ignorance (avijja) at the beginning does not imply that it is the First Cause, or Genesis, of all things.
...
Pg.7
The Buddha did not always describe the Dependent Origination cycle in one fixed form (from beggining to end). The extended format was used in cases where he was explaining the principle in general,...
...
In other descriptions He [Buddha, red] may have begun at one of intermediate factors, depending on the problem in question.....Or He may have begun with some factor altogether different from the 12 links, which was then worked into Dependent Origination chain.
...
Another point worthy to note is that the dependent origination of these links does not have the same meaning as "to be caused by" as such. The determinant which make a tree grow, for instance, include not just seed, but also the soil, moisture, fertilizer, air, temperature and so on. These are all "determinants". Moreover, being a determinant does not necessarily imply any sequential order in time.

[Sumedho]

maaf kalau saya belum memahami esensi DO menurut pengertian Bro Suchamda

Coba cek cuplikan yg di sertakan bro, konteksnya adalah 12 komponen itu.

berikut ini adalah Maha-Nidana Sutta (Digha Nikaya 15) yang merupakan penjelasan dari Paticca-samupada oleh Sang Buddha. Enjoy

Translator's Introduction

This is one of the most profound discourses in the Pali canon. It gives an extended treatment of the teachings of dependent co-arising (paticca samuppada) and not-self (anatta) in an outlined context of how these teachings function in practice.

The first part of the discourse takes the factors of dependent co-arising in sequence from effect to cause, tracing them down to the mutual dependency of name-and-form (mental and physical activity) on the one hand, and consciousness on the other. In connection with this point, it is worth noting that the word "great" in the title of the discourse may have a double meaning: modifying the word "discourse" — it's a long discourse — and modifying "causes," referring to the fact that name-and-form and consciousness as causal factors can account for everything describable in the cosmos.

After tracing the basic sequence of factors in the causal pattern, the discourse then reviews their inter-relationships, showing how they can explain stress and suffering both on the individual and on the social level.

The second part of the discourse, taking up the teaching of not-self, shows how dependent co-arising gives focus to this teaching in practice. It begins with a section on Delineations of a Self, classifying the various ways in which a sense of "self" might be defined in terms of form. The scheme of analysis introduced in this section — classifying views of the self according to the variables of form and formless; finite and infinite; already existing, naturally developing in the future, and alterable through human effort — covers all the theories of the self proposed in the classical Upanisads, as well as all theories of self or soul proposed in more recent times. The inclusion of an infinite self in this list gives the lie to the belief that the Buddha's teachings on not-self were denying nothing more than a sense of "separate" or "limited" self. The discourse points out that even a limitless, infinite, all-embracing sense of self is based on an obsession in the mind that has to be abandoned.

The following section, on Non-delineations of a Self, shows that it is possible for the mind to function without reading a "self" into experience. The remaining sections focus on ways in which this can be done by treating the sense of self as it relates to different aspects of name-and-form. The first of these sections — Assumptions of a Self — focuses on the sense of self as it relates to feeling, one of the "name" factors in name-and-form. The next section — Seven Stations of Consciousness — focuses on form, formlessness, and perception, which is another one of the "name" factors that allows a place for consciousness to land and grow on the "macro" level in the cycle of death and rebirth. The last section — Eight Emancipations — focuses on form, formlessness, and perception on the "micro" level in the practice of meditative absorption (jhana).

In each of these cases, once the sense of attachment and identification with name-and-form can be broken, the mutual dependency between consciousness and name-and-form is broken as well. This brings about total freedom from the limits of "the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation... the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness." This is the release at which the Buddha's teachings are aimed.
Dependent Co-arising

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Kurus. Now, the Kurus have a town named Kammasadhamma. There Ven. Ananda approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be."

[The Buddha:] "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for aging and death?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition do aging and death come?' one should say, 'Aging and death come from birth as their requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for birth?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does birth come?' one should say, 'Birth comes from becoming as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for becoming?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does becoming come?' one should say, 'Becoming comes from clinging as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for clinging?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does clinging come?' one should say, 'Clinging comes from craving as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for craving?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does craving come?' one should say, 'Craving comes from feeling as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for feeling?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does feeling come?' one should say, 'Feeling comes from contact as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for contact?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does contact come?' one should say, 'Contact comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for name-and-form?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does name-and-form come?' one should say, 'Name-and-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does consciousness come?' one should say, 'Consciousness comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'

"Thus, Ananda, from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress.
Aging and Death

"'From birth as a requisite condition come aging and death.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from birth as a requisite condition come aging and death. If there were no birth at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., of devas in the state of devas, of celestials in the state of celestials, of spirits in the state of spirits, of demons in the state of demons, of human beings in the human state, of quadrupeds in the state of quadrupeds, of birds in the state of birds, of snakes in the state of snakes, or of any being in its own state — in the utter absence of birth, from the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for aging and death, i.e., birth.
Birth

"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. If there were no becoming at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., sensual becoming, form becoming, or formless becoming — in the utter absence of becoming, from the cessation of becoming, would birth be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for birth, i.e., becoming.
Becoming

"'From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. If there were no clinging at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., clinging to sensuality, clinging to precepts and practices, clinging to views, or clinging to doctrines of the self — in the utter absence of clinging, from the cessation of clinging, would becoming be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for becoming, i.e., clinging.
Clinging

"'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. If there were no craving at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for no becoming — in the utter absence of craving, from the cessation of craving, would clinging be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for clinging, i.e., craving.
Craving

"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. If there were no feeling at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., feeling born of contact at the eye, feeling born of contact at the ear, feeling born of contact at the nose, feeling born of contact at the tongue, feeling born of contact at the body, or feeling born of contact at the intellect — in the utter absence of feeling, from the cessation of feeling, would craving be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for craving, i.e., feeling.
Dependent on Craving

"Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess is dependent on possessiveness, defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies.

"And this is the way to understand how it is that because of defensiveness various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies. If there were no defensiveness at all, in any way, of anything anywhere, in the utter absence of defensiveness, from the cessation of defensiveness, would various evil, unskillful phenomena — the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies — come into play?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for the coming-into-play of various evil, unskillful phenomena — the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies — i.e., defensiveness.

"'Defensiveness is dependent on stinginess.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how defensiveness is dependent on stinginess. If there were no stinginess at all, in any way, of anything anywhere, in the utter absence of stinginess, from the cessation of stinginess, would defensiveness be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for defensiveness, i.e., stinginess.

(Similarly back through the chain of conditions: stinginess, attachment, possessiveness, desire and passion, ascertainment, acquisition, and seeking.)

"'Seeking is dependent on craving.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how seeking is dependent on craving. If there were no craving at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for no becoming — in the utter absence of craving, from the cessation of craving, would seeking be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for seeking, i.e., craving. Thus, Ananda, these two phenomena [the chain of conditions leading from craving to birth, aging, and death, and the chain of conditions leading from craving to quarrels, etc.], as a duality, flow back into one place at feeling.
Feeling

"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. If there were no contact at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., contact at the eye, contact at the ear, contact at the nose, contact at the tongue, contact at the body, or contact at the intellect — in the utter absence of contact, from the cessation of contact, would feeling be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for feeling, i.e., contact.
Contact

"'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how, from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact. If the qualities, traits, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of name-group (mental activity) were all absent, would designation-contact with regard to the form-group (the physical body) be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"If the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of form-group were all absent, would resistance-contact with regard to the name-group be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"If the permutations, signs, themes, and indicators by which there is a description of name-group and form-group were all absent, would designation-contact or resistance-contact be discerned?"

"No, lord."

[Sumedho]

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for contact, i.e., name-and-form.
Name-and-form

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."
Consciousness

"'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress in the future be discerned?

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form.

"This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness.
Delineations of a Self

"To what extent, Ananda, does one delineate when delineating a self? Either delineating a self possessed of form and finite, one delineates that 'My self is possessed of form and finite.' Or, delineating a self possessed of form and infinite, one delineates that 'My self is possessed of form and infinite.' Or, delineating a self formless and finite, one delineates that 'My self is formless and finite.' Or, delineating a self formless and infinite, one delineates that 'My self is formless and infinite.'

"Now, the one who, when delineating a self, delineates it as possessed of form and finite, either delineates it as possessed of form and finite in the present, or of such a nature that it will [naturally] become possessed of form and finite [in the future/after death], or he believes that 'Although it is not yet that way, I will convert it into being that way.' This being the case, it is proper to say that a fixed view of a self possessed of form and finite obsesses him.

"The one who, when delineating a self, delineates it as possessed of form and infinite, either delineates it as possessed of form and infinite in the present, or of such a nature that it will [naturally] become possessed of form and infinite [in the future/after death], or he believes that 'Although it is not yet that way, I will convert it into being that way.' This being the case, it is proper to say that a fixed view of a self possessed of form and infinite obsesses him.

"The one who, when delineating a self, delineates it as formless and finite, either delineates it as formless and finite in the present, or of such a nature that it will [naturally] become formless and finite [in the future/after death], or he believes that 'Although it is not yet that way, I will convert it into being that way.' This being the case, it is proper to say that a fixed view of a self formless and finite obsesses him.

"The one who, when delineating a self, delineates it as formless and infinite, either delineates it as formless and infinite in the present, or of such a nature that it will [naturally] become formless and infinite [in the future/after death], or he believes that 'Although it is not yet that way, I will convert it into being that way.' This being the case, it is proper to say that a fixed view of a self formless and infinite obsesses him.
Non-Delineations of a Self

"To what extent, Ananda, does one not delineate when not delineating a self? Either not delineating a self possessed of form and finite, one does not delineate that 'My self is possessed of form and finite.' Or, not delineating a self possessed of form and infinite, one does not delineate that 'My self is possessed of form and infinite.' Or, not delineating a self formless and finite, one does not delineate that 'My self is formless and finite.' Or, not delineating a self formless and infinite, one does not delineate that 'My self is formless and infinite.'

"Now, the one who, when not delineating a self, does not delineate it as possessed of form and finite, does not delineate it as possessed of form and finite in the present, nor does he delineate it as of such a nature that it will [naturally] become possessed of form and finite [in the future/after death], nor does he believe that 'Although it is not yet that way, I will convert it into being that way.' This being the case, it is proper to say that a fixed view of a self possessed of form and finite does not obsess him.

"The one who, when not delineating a self, does not delineate it as possessed of form and infinite, does not delineate it as possessed of form and infinite in the present, nor does he delineate it as of such a nature that it will [naturally] become possessed of form and infinite [in the future/after death], nor does he believe that 'Although it is not yet that way, I will convert it into being that way.' This being the case, it is proper to say that a fixed view of a self possessed of form and infinite does not obsess him.

"The one who, when not delineating a self, does not delineate it as formless and finite, does not delineate it as formless and finite in the present, nor does he delineate it as of such a nature that it will [naturally] become formless and finite [in the future/after death], nor does he believe that 'Although it is not yet that way, I will convert it into being that way.' This being the case, it is proper to say that a fixed view of a self formless and finite does not obsess him.

"The one who, when not delineating a self, does not delineate it as formless and infinite, does not delineate it as formless and infinite in the present, nor does he delineate it as of such a nature that it will [naturally] become formless and infinite [in the future/after death], nor does he believe that 'Although it is not yet that way, I will convert it into being that way.' This being the case, it is proper to say that a fixed view of a self formless and infinite does not obsess him.
Assumptions of a Self

"To what extent, Ananda, does one assume when assuming a self? Assuming feeling to be the self, one assumes that 'Feeling is my self' [or] 'Feeling is not my self: My self is oblivious [to feeling]' [or] 'Neither is feeling my self, nor is my self oblivious to feeling, but rather my self feels, in that my self is subject to feeling.'

"Now, one who says, 'Feeling is my self,' should be addressed as follows: 'There are these three feelings, my friend — feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, and feelings of neither pleasure nor pain. Which of these three feelings do you assume to be the self?' At a moment when a feeling of pleasure is sensed, no feeling of pain or of neither pleasure nor pain is sensed. Only a feeling of pleasure is sensed at that moment. At a moment when a feeling of pain is sensed, no feeling of pleasure or of neither pleasure nor pain is sensed. Only a feeling of pain is sensed at that moment. At a moment when a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain is sensed, no feeling of pleasure or of pain is sensed. Only a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain is sensed at that moment.

"Now, a feeling of pleasure is inconstant, fabricated, dependent on conditions, subject to passing away, dissolution, fading, and cessation. A feeling of pain is inconstant, fabricated, dependent on conditions, subject to passing away, dissolution, fading, and cessation. A feeling of neither pleasure nor pain is inconstant, fabricated, dependent on conditions, subject to passing away, dissolution, fading, and cessation. Having sensed a feeling of pleasure as 'my self,' then with the cessation of one's very own feeling of pleasure, 'my self' has perished. Having sensed a feeling of pain as 'my self,' then with the cessation of one's very own feeling of pain, 'my self' has perished. Having sensed a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain as 'my self,' then with the cessation of one's very own feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, 'my self' has perished.

"Thus he assumes, assuming in the immediate present a self inconstant, entangled in pleasure and pain, subject to arising and passing away, he who says, 'Feeling is my self.' Thus in this manner, Ananda, one does not see fit to assume feeling to be the self.

"As for the person who says, 'Feeling is not the self: My self is oblivious [to feeling],' he should be addressed as follows: 'My friend, where nothing whatsoever is sensed (experienced) at all, would there be the thought, "I am"?'"

"No, lord."

"Thus in this manner, Ananda, one does not see fit to assume that 'Feeling is not my self: My self is oblivious [to feeling].'

"As for the person who says, 'Neither is feeling my self, nor is my self oblivious [to feeling], but rather my self feels, in that my self is subject to feeling,' he should be addressed as follows: 'My friend, should feelings altogether and every way stop without remainder, then with feeling completely not existing, owing to the cessation of feeling, would there be the thought, "I am"?'"

"No, lord."

"Thus in this manner, Ananda, one does not see fit to assume that 'Neither is feeling my self, nor is my self oblivious [to feeling], but rather my self feels, in that my self is subject to feeling.'

"Now, Ananda, in as far as a monk does not assume feeling to be the self, nor the self as oblivious, nor that 'My self feels, in that my self is subject to feeling,' then, not assuming in this way, he is not sustained by anything (does not cling to anything) in the world. Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"If anyone were to say with regard to a monk whose mind is thus released that 'The Tathagata exists after death,' is his view, that would be mistaken; that 'The Tathagata does not exist after death'... that 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death'... that 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' is his view, that would be mistaken. Why? Having directly known the extent of designation and the extent of the objects of designation, the extent of expression and the extent of the objects of expression, the extent of description and the extent of the objects of description, the extent of discernment and the extent of the objects of discernment, the extent to which the cycle revolves: Having directly known that, the monk is released. [To say that,] 'The monk released, having directly known that, does not see, does not know is his opinion,' that would be mistaken. 1
Seven Stations of Consciousness

"Ananda, there are these seven stations of consciousness and two spheres. Which seven?

"There are beings with diversity of body and diversity of perception, such as human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is the first station of consciousness.

"There are beings with diversity of body and singularity of perception, such as the devas of the Brahma hosts generated by the first [jhana] and some beings in the four realms of deprivation. This is the second station of consciousness. 2

"There are beings with singularity of body and diversity of perception, such as the Radiant Devas. This is the third station of consciousness.

"There are beings with singularity of body and singularity of perception, such as the Beautifully Lustrous Devas. This is the fourth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who,with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the sixth station of consciousness.

"There are beings who, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' arrive at the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh station of consciousness.

"The dimension of non-percipient beings and, second, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. [These are the two spheres.]

"Now, as for the first station of consciousness — beings with diversity of body and diversity of perception, such as human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms: If one discerns that [station of consciousness], discerns its origination, discerns its passing away, discerns its allure, discerns its drawbacks, discerns the escape from it, would it be proper, by means of that [discernment] to take delight there?"

"No, lord."

(Similarly with each of the remaining stations of consciousness and two spheres.)

"Ananda, when knowing — as they actually are — the origination, passing away, allure, drawbacks of — and escape from — these seven stations of consciousness and two spheres, a monk is released through lack of clinging, he is said to be a monk released through discernment.
Eight Emancipations

"Ananda, there are these eight emancipations. Which eight?

"Possessed of form, one sees forms. This is the first emancipation.

"Not percipient of form internally, one sees forms externally. This is the second emancipation.

"One is intent only on the beautiful. This is the third emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' one enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fourth emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' one enters and remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. This is the fifth emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' one enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is the sixth emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, one enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is the seventh emancipation.

"With the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, one enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the eighth emancipation.

"Now, when a monk attains these eight emancipations in forward order, in reverse order, in forward and reverse order, when he attains them and emerges from them wherever he wants, however he wants, and for as long as he wants, when through the ending of the mental fermentations he enters and remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having directly known it and realized it in the here and now, he is said to be a monk released in both ways. And as for another release in both ways, higher or more sublime than this, there is none."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Ananda delighted in the Blessed One's words.

Notes

1. The various readings for this sentence all seem to be corrupt. The sense of the paragraph, read in light of AN 10.96, demands that the view expressed in the last sentence be about the monk released, unlike the four earlier views, which are wrongly attributed to the monk released. In other words, the monk released has no opinion on the question of whether the Tathagata does, doesn't, etc., exist after death. This might lead to the supposition that his lack of opinion comes from a lack of knowledge or vision. The description of what he comes to know in the course of gaining release shows that this supposition is inappropriate. He does know, he does see, and what he knows and sees about the limitations of language and concepts shows him that the question of the existence of the Tathagata after death should be set aside.

Thus I would reconstruct the Pali of the final sentence in this paragraph as: Tadabhiññaa vimutto bhikkhu na jaanaati na passati iti saa ditthi tadakallam.

2.This reading follows the Thai edition of the Pali canon. Other editions omit the statement, "and some beings in the four realms of deprivation." However, something like the Thai reading seems called for, inasmuch as the first station of consciousness covers only some of the beings in the lower realms.
See also:
Bodhi, Bhikkhu, trans., The Great Discourse on Causation: The Maha Nidana Sutta and its Commentaries (Kandy, Sri Lanka: Buddhist Publication Society, 1984).
Warder, A. K., Indian Buddhism (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1980), Chapter 5.

[Suchamda]

Ok lah bung Benny. Saya rasa, ada baiknya sementara kita pending terlebih dahulu kelanjutan diskusi ini sembari masing2 merenungkan dan mencari pengertian yang lebih tepat. Saya pikir karena sudah OOT.

Silakan anda jawab saja pertanyaan semula di topik ini, bagaimana membuktikan bahwa hukum karma itu ada/ berjalan.
Saya juga ingin tahu bagaimanakah cara anda menyelami hukum karma itu dalam batin.

[Sumedho]

OK deh, kita kembali ke laptop sajah. sudah banyak kita mengganggu yang laen

kalau saya sih tidak bisa benar2x membuktikan HK ada/berjalan. Saya juga tidak bisa benar2x menyelami hukum karma dalam batin.

unless saya sammasambuddha *katanya*

[Suchamda]

kalau saya sih tidak bisa benar2x membuktikan HK ada/berjalan. Saya juga tidak bisa benar2x menyelami hukum karma dalam batin.

unless saya sammasambuddha *katanya*

Apakah adanya hukum karma tidak bisa diselami?
Saya belum pernah mendengar perkataan sang Buddha bahwa ajaranNya tidak dapat diselami.
Tetapi kalau mau memahami secara penuh tentang hukum karma memang itu adalah domainnya Sammasambuddha karena sangat kompleks.

[Suchamda]

Bagi yang ingin mendalami pemahaman hubungan antara hukum karma dan Dependent Origination, silakan baca link ini:
http://www.davidcadman.net/docs/Dependent%20Origination.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9280/coarise2.htm

[Sumedho]

kalau saya sih tidak bisa benar2x membuktikan HK ada/berjalan. Saya juga tidak bisa benar2x menyelami hukum karma dalam batin.

unless saya sammasambuddha *katanya*

Apakah adanya hukum karma tidak bisa diselami?
Saya belum pernah mendengar perkataan sang Buddha bahwa ajaranNya tidak dapat diselami.
Tetapi kalau mau memahami secara penuh tentang hukum karma memang itu adalah domainnya Sammasambuddha karena sangat kompleks.

kalau apakah bisa, ya pasti bisa. Sang Buddha *katanya* sudah membuktikan dan menyelami-nya.
Kalau saya sih.... masih belum bisa benar2x/sepenuhnya tuh..

[Upaseno]

Jangan pending dulu deh...

For Suchamda:
"Hukum Karma sudah ada semenjak jaman sebelum Buddha, dan diajarkan oleh para Brahmin.  Coba renungkan apa perbedaan hukum karma dari para Brahmin dan hukum karma dari ajaran Buddha?"---The word "kamma" for them both is same but the systems are different.  For the Brahmin, The effect of an action could have result to their children, grandchildren, etc.  Of course, i don't need to explain the Buddha's kamma system.

For Benny:
After the Buddha enlightened, he saw the process of Dependent Origination.  Later on, he developed Dependent Origination into Kamma.