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Offline Kokuzo

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #105 on: 29 July 2007, 01:14:22 PM »
tai_kucing
selamattttttt dataaaaaaaaaang!!!!!!
tolong perkenalkan diri di tred perkenalan  ^-^

 _/\_

Offline dipasena

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #106 on: 29 July 2007, 01:25:06 PM »
saya kira kita sedang mencoba melogika dan membuktikan apa yang belum pernah kita rasakan dan alami: nibbana.....  apakah mungkin kita melakukan hal ini??? di-imani saja deh...

kenapa harus mengimani bung ? kalo jalan untuk membuktikan Nibbana itu tersedia dan pintu gerbangnya terbuka lebar ? gratis pula... intinya kan bisa dibuktikan ? betul...

beda dunk, proses mengimani Mr. T dari agama Nasrani, bersyarat tp berani pasang label terbuka untuk siapa saja, asal... [tit...tit... * belum lulus badan sensor *] trus ga boleh dan ga bisa dibuktikan lagi... parah...

Offline Kokuzo

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #107 on: 29 July 2007, 01:33:23 PM »
sabar sudara"ku seiman...

jangan dijudge Dharmakara adalah seorang K, belum tentu, mungkin dia eks-K, lagi transisi, belum paham benar dasar ajaran Buddha... jadi masih menggunakan metode saat di K dalam memahami Buddhisme... dan menganggap Buddhisme adalah logika, semuanya bisa dilogikakan, dan ketika tidak mampu dilogikakan, kita harus menyerah dan mengimani, bukannya terus mencari dan menemukan kebenaran sebenarnya... maybe... jangan diattack dulu... dimana" perang tuh ga enak  :)

Bhante Upaseno udah ada ngebahas masalah logika dan Dhamma di topik sebelah. silahkan Bro Kara baca lebih lanjut...  :)

tai_kucing
emank bener neh ni nick kerasa bau banget. kayanya bukan bau domba deh, tapi bau ee' kuciang  ^-^

Offline ryu

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #108 on: 29 July 2007, 01:53:55 PM »
Ada tai kucing di sini? Ohh I miss u tai kucing!! Tapi sebaiknya sdr dharma memberikan penjelasan dia sebagai umat mana, yg percaya imanisasi atau bukan.
Janganlah memperhatikan kesalahan dan hal-hal yang telah atau belum dikerjakan oleh diri sendiri. Tetapi, perhatikanlah apa yang telah dikerjakan dan apa yang belum dikerjakan oleh orang lain =))

Offline Kokuzo

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #109 on: 29 July 2007, 01:59:23 PM »
gw pikir jawabannya udah bisa kita liat sendiri...
ya gw seh mikirnya paling dia ada kekeliruan menanggapi Buddhism seperti agam samawi...
di Buddhism segala yang dikitab harus dipercaya dulu baru dibuktikan...
jadi yang belum dibuktikan sendiri akan menjadi iman...
bro Kara, anggap aja hal" yang belum terbukti oleh diri sendiri itu sebagai pengetahuan, bukan iman...
apa salahnya kita mengetahui ada yang namanya Nibbana, terlepas benar tidaknya itu...
kalo mengimani hal tersebut berarti menganggap hal tersebut benar padahal belum membuktikan sendiri, padahal Sang Buddha tidak menganjurkan demikian....

Offline morpheus

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #110 on: 29 July 2007, 03:24:56 PM »
bro Kara, anggap aja hal" yang belum terbukti oleh diri sendiri itu sebagai pengetahuan, bukan iman...
wah, kalo pake kata "pengetahuan", menurut saya itu keliru buesaaar... ;D

gini, gini, sebelom mengeroyok dharmakara rame2, mendingan samakan persepsi dulu, apa itu iman, apa itu kepercayaan, apa itu keyakinan, apa itu pengetahuan...

nah, kalo udah didefinisikan, baru mikir2 sebaiknya nibbana itu dimasupin ke kotak yg mana? iman kah? kepercayaan kah? pengetahuan kah?
hayo, berantemnya diteruskan...

 >:D >:D >:D
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Offline Sumedho

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #111 on: 29 July 2007, 04:52:44 PM »
 [at] tai_kucing:
 :-w katanya kgk pake nick itu kalo join.....
There is no place like 127.0.0.1

Offline Kokuzo

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #112 on: 29 July 2007, 05:03:48 PM »
Quote
wah, kalo pake kata "pengetahuan", menurut saya itu keliru buesaaar... Grin

pengetahuan disini juga maksudnya bukan pengetahuan yang udah benar...
but kita sekedar mengetahui dalam Buddhism ada tentang 31 alam... cukup... terlepas dari benar tidaknya... yah seperti halnya (mungkin) kita semua tau Yesus lahir dari perawan Maria. cukup... terlepas dari benar tidaknya....
kata apa donk tepatnya Us? maklum pelajaran bahasa Indonesia kebanyakan ngobrol...  ;D

Offline dipasena

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #113 on: 29 July 2007, 10:02:24 PM »
bro Kara, anggap aja hal" yang belum terbukti oleh diri sendiri itu sebagai pengetahuan, bukan iman...
wah, kalo pake kata "pengetahuan", menurut saya itu keliru buesaaar... ;D

gini, gini, sebelom mengeroyok dharmakara rame2, mendingan samakan persepsi dulu, apa itu iman, apa itu kepercayaan, apa itu keyakinan, apa itu pengetahuan...

nah, kalo udah didefinisikan, baru mikir2 sebaiknya nibbana itu dimasupin ke kotak yg mana? iman kah? kepercayaan kah? pengetahuan kah?
hayo, berantemnya diteruskan...

 >:D >:D >:D

betul tuh, boleh jg ide bro Mor, ayo kita giring pelan2 nih Dharmakara... entar keliatan koq  ^-^ abis berani bawa tanah ke kolam, ya kecemplung [tenggelam] dan tidak berarti tuh tanah, cm jd kotoran didasar kolam [gw koq sekarang jd sering pake istilah Zen gini ya ?  :))]

Offline morpheus

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #114 on: 29 July 2007, 10:11:44 PM »
eee... maksud saya bukan itu... saya cuman pengen diskusinya lebih terarah, karena saya liat diskusi ini cenderung menjadi perang gerilya... lebih baik kalo postingnya gak males2an, terangin yg lebih panjang, mulai dari definisinya, trus kenapa sesuatu lebih cocok dikotakkan ke suatu kotak... kan lebih bagus kalo semuanya bisa mendapatkan manfaat...

saya pikir sih bang dharmakara mungkin juga punya point tersendiri, cuman mungkin orangnya males...
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Offline dipasena

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #115 on: 29 July 2007, 10:28:18 PM »
eee... maksud saya bukan itu... saya cuman pengen diskusinya lebih terarah, karena saya liat diskusi ini cenderung menjadi perang gerilya... lebih baik kalo postingnya gak males2an, terangin yg lebih panjang, mulai dari definisinya, trus kenapa sesuatu lebih cocok dikotakkan ke suatu kotak... kan lebih bagus kalo semuanya bisa mendapatkan manfaat...

betul... i do... [sambil ngacung"kan jempol tuh, see page 7] kalo ada yg salah dari penjelasan ane mohon koreksi, dr pd nunggu-in jawaban si dharmakara [kalo ini diharapkan balasan/tangapan]

Offline Muten Roshi

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #116 on: 30 July 2007, 12:44:33 AM »
sambung lagi nih. .ada artikel bagus tentang science

THE MYTH OF MAGICAL SCIENCE
Modern science is an amazing phenomenon, and people naturally wonder how it works. You'd think that science itself would provide the answer, but scientific studies of how science, in general, works are quite unusual. Many scientists and observers have published their views on the question, but the various accounts disagree widely and rarely even refer to evidence. All in all, we've been offered quite an array of different answers to this question, some of them more or less accurate and some of them ridiculous. 

One cluster of largely mistaken views is now commonly believed to be the simple truth about how science develops new knowledge. Our schools and media foster these beliefs -- I call them The Myth of Magical Science. A brief summary of the main points would go something like this: 

(1) Scientific Knowledge is a new type of knowledge, superior to common sense and all other types of non-scientific beliefs.

(2) Scientific Knowledge can only be discovered by highly trained professional scientists.

(3) Scientists obtain Scientific Knowledge by following The Scientific Method, a uniquely powerful tool for understanding Reality.

Do these points seem obvious? Have you ever seen them presented as ideas or theories or beliefs about science that might be incorrect? Probably not. They are part of the background of beliefs that are assumed by almost all of us.

The question of how scientific work proceeds and why it is so successful is hardly ever presented as a question at all. It is presented as a cut-and-dried formula for scientific research and training, as if scientific research were well understood. 

Later on this page we point out some of the problems with each of the three main points of the Myth of Magical Science:

No Special Method is Required
 
No Special Type of Knowledge is Produced
 
Who Really Creates Scientific Knowledge?

After giving up the notions that science is a special type of knowledge developed by special people using a special method, we'll be left with an important question unanswered -- What is it about science that makes it seem so special? I'll discuss that briefly in another section of this page:

So What IS Special about Science?

Offline Sukma Kemenyan

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #117 on: 30 July 2007, 12:53:00 AM »
Translate donk...
Englite gw Sembelite

Offline Muten Roshi

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #118 on: 30 July 2007, 01:45:50 AM »
NO SPECIAL TYPE OF KNOWLEDGE IS PRODUCED

We are discussing the common belief that scientific knowledge is a special, superior type of knowledge, made possible by a special method. We just concluded that there is no special method which is unique to science. The next point is that scientific knowledge is not particularly special, either.

Part 1 of the Myth of Magical Science goes something like this: 

Scientific Knowledge is a new type of knowledge, superior to common sense and all other types of nonscientific beliefs.

When I say that scientific knowledge is not special, I do not mean that it is not superior in content to much of what went before. I mean that it is not a superior kind of knowledge. While scientific knowledge may be superior in various ways, it is not fundamentally a different type of knowledge from ordinary knowledge.

The improvement in content from a pre-scientific understanding of some aspect of the natural world, to a scientific understanding of that topic, is not necessarily a different kind of improvement, than the change in content from a scientific understanding of some domain to a later, improved, scientific understanding. 

Scientific knowledge may be a different kind of knowledge, if the previous view was not based on careful thinking about evidence, but it may not be a different kind of knowledge. 

For example, certain religious ideas are considered to be knowledge by the people who hold them, knowledge of a superior sort that can only be provided by divine revelation, knowledge justified by pure faith alone. If that is knowledge, it is certainly a different kind of knowledge than what scientists develop using observable evidence and logic and experimentation -- but observation and logic and even experimentation are found in most human activities.

Careful examination of and involvement with and thinking about any phenomenon, over a long period of time, as with a farmer's awareness of the effects of the seasons on her crops, can yield understanding that is no different in kind from much of the scientific understanding of that phenomenon.

When a new science emerges out of the background of common-sense belief and practical detail in a particular area, the scientists do not begin by re-examining all that background knowledge to make sure it comes up to some scientific standard of quality and reliability. They take for granted these generally respected beliefs and methods as they focus on whatever it is that they are interested in.

Our understanding of ourselves and our world, and our understanding of science itself, retains an unknown quantity of pre-scientific beliefs and practices which have never been studied scientifically and are assumed to be more or less true and workable.

For the most part, this background knowledge is adequately true and workable: Our ancestors, human and non human, have had hundreds of millions of years of biological and social evolution for working on getting these things right. Aspects of the background knowledge that get exposed as the cause of some failure or inconsistency are replaced, refined, or noted as suspect. From that perspective, science is merely continuing a project that began at the first dawning of awareness.

One final point on this theme: In stressing the extent to which most scientific knowledge is not some new special kind of knowledge, I do not mean to imply that there are no new kinds of knowledge, superior as could be, that have been developed by science -- knowledge the like of which was never seen before science created that new way of knowing. I am merely saying that scientific knowledge does not, in general, consist entirely of any such delightfully fancy new type of knowledge.

Offline Muten Roshi

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Re: Pembuktian dalam Buddhisme
« Reply #119 on: 30 July 2007, 01:49:21 AM »
NO SPECIAL METHOD IS REQUIREDThe scientist has no other method than doing his damnedest.
-- P.W. Bridgman


I stated Part 3 of the Myth of Magical Science like this: 

Scientists obtain Scientific Knowledge by following The Scientific Method, a uniquely powerful tool for understanding Reality.

Much of the discussion in the literature of the philosophy of science turns around the problem of distinguishing scientific knowledge acquisition from other ways of acquiring knowledge. The philosophers assumed that science is special and were trying to understand exactly how it is special. We could summarize the task they set themselves as two questions: What is the nature of the special method scientists use, and how is it different from and superior to other ways of gaining knowledge?

Any theorist who wants to take this project seriously as a way to come up with an explanation of how science works finds herself in a very difficult position: A special method is required, which must be able to account for all of scientific progress. Furthermore, it must be shown that when what scientists do looks like what happens in non-scientific knowledge acquisition, it really isn't.

A scientist approaching the problem of understanding how science works, and why it has been so amazingly productive, might start out quite differently. Since science is one of the ways that human beings use for learning about themselves and their world, our scientist would examine what we know about other types of thinking and learning. She would certainly include the learning skills that the philosophers of science were trying to exclude -- methods of learning that human beings share with other animals, for example, and the development of ordinary "common-sense" knowledge by human beings. She would be very interested in the question of how scientists use these types of learning and thinking in their work. 

For example, one of the most basic forms of learning is learning about something by paying attention to it, without manipulating it in any way. Animals learn this way all the time, and so do scientists. Then there are ways that people learn that are available only to human beings, for example learning about something by reading and thinking about descriptions of what other people have learned before. Obviously, scientists do that a lot, too. A great many other many methods for learning and thinking are used by both scientists and non-scientists.

It is possible that scientists may also learn in ways that non-scientists never use, but that remains to be seen. If we ask our scientist of science, she would say that that is an empirical question. Until we have some well developed evidence showing that scientific knowledge acquisition is somehow special, it is certainly inappropriate to assume that it must be different from other ways of acquiring knowledge. 

Even if special methods of learning and thinking that are unique to science do exist, they are certainly not what most scientists use, most of the time. What is required for scientific progress is mainly ordinary curiosity, ordinary awareness, ordinary learning, ordinary reasoning, and fairly ordinary communication. Of course scientists work hard to develop and use precise technical terms for many of the things they talk about, but so do lawyers and golfers and cooks. It would be quite surprising to our scientist of science if she discovered that scientists regularly use an entirely unique type of technicality in their professional jargon.

I'm certainly not claiming that we understand all these ordinary cognitive functions; I am merely saying that we have, so far, no compelling reason to suppose that the curiosity, awareness, thinking, learning and communicating involved in science are different from their ordinary counterparts. One scholar stated the issue quite clearly:
  I spent many years trying to distinguish fruitfully between one or more scientific methods, and various methods used by historians, lawyers, medical doctors, people in general, etc. I used to teach courses in history of science, and occasionally philosophy of science for a philosophy department. I was never able to find a convincing set of arguments which showed that the methods of scientists differed in some fundamental way from methods used in other fields. That is, logical reasoning was of the same nature throughout, uses of precedent and past experience were of the same nature, uses of observation, evidence and (when available) experiment were of the same nature, and so on.
 
Gordon Fisher -- (Full text no longer available on the Web)


Scientists generally use, in their work, the same types of cognition as regular folks. Furthermore, there is also no unique method, used by all scientists, that could reasonably be called "The Scientific Method." In his book Reflections of a Physicist, Percy W. Bridgman addressed the issue from the perspective of the scientist:
  Scientific method is something talked about by people standing on the outside and wondering how the scientist manages to do it....

What appears to [the working scientist] as the essence of the situation is that he is not consciously following any prescribed course of action, but feels complete freedom to utilize any method or device whatever which in the particular situation before him seems likely to yield the correct answer. In his attack on his specific problem he suffers no inhibitions of precedent or authority, but is completely free to adopt any course that his ingenuity is capable of suggesting to him. No one standing on the outside can predict what the individual scientist will do or what method he will follow. In short, science is what scientists do, and there are as many scientific methods as there are individual scientists.
 Percy W. Bridgman -- "On Scientific Method"


In summary, scientists actually use quite a lot of methods: There is no single method that all scientists use, and most of the methods they do use are not all that special -- they're used in a lot of other professions, methods like "trial and error," for example. 

Furthermore, the so called "Scientific Method" that students are taught, the "hypothetico-deductive method," can't be followed, because it's not really a method at all -- it's an failed attempt to give a logical analysis of how empirical knowledge depends on evidence. When people take it as a method and try to follow it, it leads to serious problems. These are somewhat involved topics that I've decided to put on a separate page: 

The Myth of the Magical "Scientific Method"

I call it "The Magical Scientific Method" because it was supposed to provide a fail-safe route to empirically valid knowledge, but it never worked as promised. The program failed partly because the logical analysis was incorrect -- but the main problem was that science just isn't that simple. As in the Sherlock Holmes stories, there's just no predicting what astonishing observations and inferences we humans will come up with next.

 

anything