Benarkah mereka yg mencapai kesucian meninggalkan relik?

[seniya]

atthakatha kan komentar juga... personally utk atthakatha dhammapada, i don't take that so seriously selain mencoba mengambil pesan/nilainya aja.

btw yg dipermasalahkan itu bukan masalah menghormati relik/sisa ama TS, tapi yg mengkristal jadi berwarna warni itu loh.

Ven. Peacemind menanyakan sumber (referensi), saya memberikan referensi dari komentar Dhammapada yg secara tidak langsung menunjuk pada kemungkinan munculnya relik dari sisa kremasi para Ariya Puggala. Mungkin penafsiran komentar tsb terlalu dipaksakan y?

Btw, saya menemukan sumber lain dari buku Riwayat Hidup Sariputta, tepatnya Cunda Sutta dan komentarnya:

Cunda Sutta  

    Once the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthi, in Anathapindika's park. At that time the Venerable Sariputta was at Nalaka village in the Magadha country, and was sick, suffering, gravely ill. The Novice Cunda was his attendant.

    And the Venerable Sariputta passed away finally through that very illness. Then the Novice Cunda took the almsbowl and robes of the Venerable Sariputta and went to Savatthi, to the Jeta Grove, Anathapindika's park. There he betook himself to the Venerable Ananda and, having saluted him, seated himself at one side. Thus seated, he spoke to the Venerable Ananda saying: "Venerable sir, the Venerable Sariputta has had his final passing away. These are his bowl and robes."

    "On this matter, Cunda, we ought to see the Blessed One. Let us go, friend Cunda, and meet the Master. Having met him, we shall acquaint the Blessed One with that fact."

    "Yes, Venerable sir," said the Novice Cunda.

    They went to see the Blessed One, and having arrived there and saluted the Master, they seated themselves at one side. Then the Venerable Ananda addressed the Blessed One:

    "O Lord, the Novice Cunda has told me this: 'The Venerable Sariputta has had his final passing away. These are his bowl and robes.' Then, O Lord, my own body became weak as a creeper; everything around became dim and things were no longer clear to me, when I heard about the final passing away of the Venerable Sariputta."

    "How is this, Ananda? When Sariputta had his final passing away, did he take from you your portion of virtue, or your portion of concentration, or your portion of the knowledge and vision of deliverance?"

    "Not so, Lord. When the Venerable Sariputta had his final passing away he did not take my portion of virtue... concentration... wisdom... deliverance, or my portion of the knowledge and vision of deliverance. But O Lord, the Venerable Sariputta has been to me a mentor, teacher, and instructor, one who rouses, inspires and gladdens, untiring in preaching Dhamma, a helper of his fellow monks. And we remember how vitalizing, enjoyable and helpful his Dhamma instruction was."

    "Have I not taught you aforetime, Ananda, that it is the nature of all things near and dear to us that we must suffer separation from them, and be severed from them? Of that which is born, come to being, put together, and so is subject to dissolution, how should it be said that it should not depart? That, indeed, is not possible. It is, Ananda, as though from a mighty hardwood tree a large branch should break off, so has Sariputta now had his final passing away from this great and sound community of bhikkhus. Indeed, Ananda, of that which is born, come to being, put together, and so is subject to dissolution, how should it be said that it should not depart? This, indeed, is not possible.

    "Therefore, Ananda, be ye an island unto yourself, a refuge unto yourself, seeking no external refuge; with the Teaching as your island, the Teaching your refuge, seeking no other refuge."

The Commentary takes up the narrative thus:

    The Master stretched forth his hand, and taking the filter with the relics, placed it on his palm, and said to the monks:

    "These, O monks, are the shell-colored relics of the bhikkhu who, not long ago, asked for permission to have his final passing away. He who fulfilled the Perfections for an incalculable aeon and a hundred thousand kalpas — this was that bhikkhu. He who obtained the seat next to me — this was that bhikkhu. He who, apart from me, had none to equal him in wisdom throughout the whole ten-thousandfold universe — this was that bhikkhu. Of great wisdom was this bhikkhu, of broad wisdom, bright wisdom, quick wisdom, of penetrative wisdom was this bhikkhu. Few wants had this bhikkhu; he was contented, bent on seclusion, not fond of company, full of energy, an exhorter of his fellow monks, censuring what is evil. He who went forth into homelessness, abandoning the great fortune obtained through his merits in five hundred existences — this was that bhikkhu. He who, in my Dispensation, was patient like the earth — this was that bhikkhu. Harmless like a bull whose horns had been cut — this was that bhikkhu. Of humble mind like a Candala boy — this was that bhikkhu.

    "See here, O monks, the relics of him who was of great wisdom, of broad, bright, quick, keen and penetrative wisdom; who had few wants and was contented, bent on seclusion, not fond of company, energetic — see here the relics of him who was an exhorter of his fellow monks, who censured evil!"

    Then the Buddha spoke the following verses in praise of his Great Disciple:

        "To him who in five times a hundred lives
        Went forth to homelessness, casting away
        Pleasures the heart holds dear, from passion free,
        With faculties controlled — now homage pay
        To Sariputta who has passed away!

        To him who, strong in patience like the earth,
        Over his own mind had absolute sway,
        Who was compassionate, kind, serenely cool,
        And firm as earth withal — now homage pay
        To Sariputta who has passed away!

        Who, like an outcaste boy of humble mind,
        Enters the town and slowly wends his way
        From door to door with begging bowls in hand,
        Such was this Sariputta — now homage pay
        To Sariputta who has passed away!

        One who in town or jungle, hurting none,
        Lived like a bull whose horns are cut away,
        Such was this Sariputta, who had won
        Mastery of himself — now homage pay
        To Sariputta who has passed away!"

Sumber: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel090.html#cunda

Tetapi agak janggal juga, teks Cunda Sutta hanya menyebutkan adanya jubah dan mangkuk YA Sariputta, tetapi dalam komentarnya dikatakan terdapat relik dari sang siswa utama.

[Peacemind]

Sebenarnya dalam Kitab Kanon Pali ada beberapa fakta yang menyebutkan keberadaan relik setelah meninggal, namun tidak menyebutkan apakah relik tersebut mengkristal ataukah tidak. Penghormatan terhadap relik pun disebutkan di beberapa teks di Kanon, seperti Bahiyasutta dalam Udānapali dan Mahāparinibbāṇasutta.

[Peacemind]

Tetapi agak janggal juga, teks Cunda Sutta hanya menyebutkan adanya jubah dan mangkuk YA Sariputta, tetapi dalam komentarnya dikatakan terdapat relik dari sang siswa utama.

Ada tradisi dalam Sangha di mana ketika seorang bhikkhu meninggal jubah, mangkok dan barang-barang yang berguna akan diserahkan kepada Sangha yang mana akan diberikan kepada para bhikkhu yang membutuhkannya. Tradisi inilah yang memungkinkan mengapa bhikkhu Cunda hanya membawa mangkuk dan jubah bhikkhu Sāriputta.

[Indra]

Ven. Peacemind menanyakan sumber (referensi), saya memberikan referensi dari komentar Dhammapada yg secara tidak langsung menunjuk pada kemungkinan munculnya relik dari sisa kremasi para Ariya Puggala. Mungkin penafsiran komentar tsb terlalu dipaksakan y?

Btw, saya menemukan sumber lain dari buku Riwayat Hidup Sariputta, tepatnya Cunda Sutta dan komentarnya:

Tetapi agak janggal juga, teks Cunda Sutta hanya menyebutkan adanya jubah dan mangkuk YA Sariputta, tetapi dalam komentarnya dikatakan terdapat relik dari sang siswa utama.

jubah dan mangkuk juga termasuk dalam kategori relik

[Lex Chan]

sekarang relik Buddha Kassapa masih bisa dilihat? saya pernah baca, kok ada relik gigi Beliau? padahal kan sudah lama sekali.

ini linknya: http://sudhammacaro.blogspot.com/2010/05/relik-buddha-sisa-organ-jasmani.html

Ajahn Chah juga meninggalkan relik katanya.

saya baca, hasil kremasi juga tidak meninggalkan dna, jadi kalau mau dicek itu kristal dari makhluk hidup atau tidak, susah kayaknya...

seharusnya relik Buddha Kassapa sudah lenyap..

konon katanya, nanti pada saat akhir Buddha sasana, seluruh relik berkumpul lagi sejenak, kemudian lenyap..

[seniya]

jubah dan mangkuk juga termasuk dalam kategori relik

Komentar Cunda Sutta di atas mengatakan tentang relik yg berwarna se1perti kulit kerang: These, O monks, are the shell-colored relics of the bhikkhu who, not long ago, asked for permission to have his final passing away. Jadi saya rasa itu bukan relik dalam arti peninggalan barang-barang penggunaan pribadi, melainkan relik sisa-sisa tubuh.

 [at] peacemind:

Oh ya, saya gak baca dengan hati-hati pertanyaan anda di post #1, saya kira menanyakan referensi tentang apakah para Ariya Puggala meninggalkan relik tubuh. :malu:

[adi lim]

kekna bukan suhu tinggi aja, tapi perlu tekanan tinggi jg dimana tidak ada dalam kremasi biasa. Kan kalau pembuatan kristal/diamond itu harus sudah jadi abu dulu, lalu abunya di press dengan tekanan dan suhu tinggi lagi.

http://www.lifegem.com/

[Sumedho]

http://www.lifegem.com/

kan prosesnya high pressure juga, kalau di kremasi mana ada hi pressure, apalagi jaman dahulu belum ditemukan teknologi beginian

[adi lim]

kan prosesnya high pressure juga, kalau di kremasi mana ada hi pressure, apalagi jaman dahulu belum ditemukan teknologi beginian

mungkin high pressure 'bantuan  dewa'     

 

[morpheus]

mengunjungi relik manfaatnya apa?

kira2 yg dipikirkan orang sewaktu melihat relik:
* wah bagus ya
* wah, keren juga. aku juga mau punya relik
* luar biasa. aku juga mau jadi relik kalo udah mati
* kata sutta menghormat relik bisa masup surga. paykui ah...
* apa iya ini relik asli?
* kok bisa ya berwarna-warni?
* luar biasa. sungguh hebat para suciwan. aku merasa kecil dibanding mereka.

manfaatnya... disimpulkan sendiri. ataukah ada pendapat lain?

[williamhalim]

Kalau tidak salah, di masa umur manusia panjang, reliknya satu karena kesempatan lebih besar bagi orang untuk mengunjungi relik. Di masa umur manusia pendek, reliknya menyebar untuk menjangkau lebih banyak orang.

Selain itu juga demi mensejahterakan banyak negara, tidak satu negara saja.

Kalau relik banyak, umat Buddha yg tertarik relik tdk perlu ke satu negara saja, yg mengakibatkan monopoli benda suci, para Buddha sudah memikirkan juga dari segi ekonomi dan pariwisata untuk ribuan tahun kedepannya..

Beda dgn yg memonopoli satu tempat suci aja, negara tsb memonopoli jutaan umat dan menghasilkan devisa yg besar bagi diri sendiri...

::

[adi lim]

kira2 yg dipikirkan orang sewaktu melihat relik:
* wah bagus ya
* wah, keren juga. aku juga mau punya relik
* luar biasa. aku juga mau jadi relik kalo udah mati
* kata sutta menghormat relik bisa masup surga. paykui ah...
* apa iya ini relik asli?
* kok bisa ya berwarna-warni?
* luar biasa. sungguh hebat para suciwan. aku merasa kecil dibanding mereka.

manfaatnya... disimpulkan sendiri. ataukah ada pendapat lain?

ya namanya juga manusia

[Sumedho]

mungkin high pressure 'bantuan  dewa'     

 

no comment ah    

[Peacemind]

Setidaknya kitab komentar untuk Cundasutta menjelaskan bahwa karena kebijaksanaan Bhikkhu Sāriputta yang telah dikembangkan berkalpa-kalpa lamanya, setelah meninggal, jazadnya meninggalkan relik yang berkilau seperti kulit kerang. Pertanyaan saya sebenarnya bukan hanya berkaitan dengan relik arahat saja tetapi juga dengan relik-relik para suciwan lain seperti Sotapanna, Sakagadami dan Anagami. Pertanyaan ini saya ajukan karena ada kecenderungan pada para Buddhis saat ini  yang berpendapat bahwa kesucian seseorang bisa dilihat melalui jazadnya yang meninggalkan relik mengkristal.

[seniya]

Maaf, OOT, org2 suci dr agama lain (misalnya para santo ka****k) jg meninggalkan relik stlh kremasi. Jd sepertinya sudah kepercayaan umum bhw mereka yg dianggap suci akan meninggalkan relik tubuh.