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Offline nyanadhana

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #15 on: 19 March 2008, 09:37:42 AM »
soal sejarah Chiang,memang betul historicalnya seperti ini,Taiwan sekarang telah berubah menjadi sebuah 'negara'.masyarakat sebenarnya tidak setuju karena merger dengan China akan berakibat pemikiran komunisme masuk.ini yang saya tahu dari orang-orang Taiwan. Meskipun daratan itu awalnya adalah milik China. toh Taiwan hanyalah sebuah pulau yang sangat kecil dibandingkan dengan daratan China yang super luas.motif seperti ini akan membingungkan. jadi menurut pemikiran saya,entah siapa yang benar siapa yang salah,ga mau campur tangan politik deh.  _/\_ soal Tibet,terlalu banyak berdoa tapi tidak pernah membangun,sama saja membunuh orang dengan kanvas.ga pernah berhasil.masyarakat yang terjebak dalam mistis dan ritual sudah dikatakan oleh Sang Buddha bahwa ia tidak menekankan ritual dan praktik mistis kayak gitu karena tidak membawa perkembangan batin. ini makanya kemunduran terjadi di Tibet bukan sebuah kemajuan.
Sadhana is nothing but where a disciplined one, the love, talks to one’s own soul. It is nothing but where one cleans his own mind.

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #16 on: 19 March 2008, 09:40:07 AM »
serah d gimana jadinya yg penting
damai itu indah
wkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkwww ;D ;D ;D
ginong




kwkwkwkwkkwkwk

Offline nyanadhana

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #17 on: 19 March 2008, 09:42:28 AM »
lagian Tibet bukan milik China dari jadul ampe jarang(jaman sekarang).So udah deh tuh China,tibet ga usah dimacem-macemin lagi.itu urusan mereka mau maju atau tetap keep pikiran mereka dalam Buddhisme yang begitulah........ritual dan ritual everyday.
Sadhana is nothing but where a disciplined one, the love, talks to one’s own soul. It is nothing but where one cleans his own mind.

Offline Lily W

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #18 on: 19 March 2008, 10:03:19 AM »
Itulah keserakahan china.... ;D.. ingin menguasai tibet...

Dalai lama sudah pasti tidak mau berperang dg china karena akan menimbulkan banyak korban berdarah....(seperti di film kundun)...

 _/\_ :lotus:

~ Kakek Guru : "Pikiran adalah Raja Kehidupan"... bahagia dan derita berasal dari Pikiran.
~ Mak Kebo (film BABE) : The Only way you'll find happiness is to accept that the way things are. Is the way things are

Offline F.T

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #19 on: 19 March 2008, 10:05:47 AM »
Tibet masih masuk wilayah China ... _/\_

 [at] lily : Kekuasaan, c Li .. China haus akan kekuasaan .. sama halnya dengan amrik ... :))


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Offline nyanadhana

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #20 on: 19 March 2008, 10:08:53 AM »
secara geografis iya,secara latar belakang historical tidak. kalo gitu negara tetangga seperti Sri Lanka,India,caplok aja sekaligus,kan termasuk dalam daratan yang sama.
Sadhana is nothing but where a disciplined one, the love, talks to one’s own soul. It is nothing but where one cleans his own mind.

Offline nyanadhana

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #21 on: 19 March 2008, 10:10:22 AM »
dulu kala China menyusupi Tibet dengan pake bocah Dalai Lama made in china,namun karena gagal.bocah ini juga ntah ada dimana sekarang
Sadhana is nothing but where a disciplined one, the love, talks to one’s own soul. It is nothing but where one cleans his own mind.

Offline William_phang

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #22 on: 19 March 2008, 11:06:28 AM »
Felix, mau meluruskan aja kayaknya chiang khai sek bukan tangan kanan mao deh. Soalnya chiang khai sek itu pemimpin partai sosialis dan mao itu pemimpin partai komunis. Dimasa pemerintahan partai sosialis banyak terjadi korupsi dan kemiskinan, sehinga lahirnya partai komunis yang dipimpin oleh mao. Sesudah perang dunia kedua China terjadi perang sodara diantara kedua paham ini. Perang sodara dimenangkan oleh partai komunis dan sebagai pihak yang kalah perang chiang kai sek lari ke taiwan.

Offline F.T

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #23 on: 19 March 2008, 11:13:34 AM »
dulu kala China menyusupi Tibet dengan pake bocah Dalai Lama made in china,namun karena gagal.bocah ini juga ntah ada dimana sekarang


BoBoHo ?? :)) j/k ^:)^

yah.. Semoga permasalahan Tibet dan China dapat segera menemukan jalan keluar yang baik bagi kedua belah pihak .. Sy tidak membela salah satu pihak manapun ...

Tibet juga daerah yang memprihatinkan dengan kondisi kemanusiaan serba kekurangan, apalagi di sana daerahnya dingin dan kurang oksigen seperti di Lhaksa, Namun China juga dengan segala upaya membantu Tibet agar dapat mempertahankan kehidupannya dengan memberikan keleluasaan berdagang bagi rakyat Tibet di daerah china.

Ada banyak issue2 yang beredar di luar, dan tadi Ko Suchamda ada menghimbau  untuk tidak menelan mentah2 info2 yang beredar saat ini ...

Ok Semoga yang membaca info2 tibet dan china dapat menilai dengan bijaksana .. _/\_





« Last Edit: 19 March 2008, 11:15:46 AM by Felix Thioris »


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Offline nyanadhana

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #24 on: 19 March 2008, 11:19:10 AM »
iye,saat ini aja masih bingung,sebenarnya siapa yang baik siapa yang jahat....ga tau deh...maka ga mau campur tangan komenin.let it be...kalo china punya niat baik,ngapain pake perang segala,wong berbuat baik kok maksa banget.kalo org lain ga mau terima kebaikan,ya udah biarin aja.trus soal tibet,i dunno.terlalu banyak ritual upacara yang akhirnya kemajuan jaman tidak diikuti.di kundun,masa prajuritnya bawa foto Dalai lama ketika berperang,perang kok pake foto,ya pake senjata lha.
Sadhana is nothing but where a disciplined one, the love, talks to one’s own soul. It is nothing but where one cleans his own mind.

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #25 on: 19 March 2008, 11:24:22 AM »
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/

Dalai Lama akan berhenti sebagai pemimpin politik, jika orang2 Tibet sendiri yang terus melakukan kekerasan..., agar orang2 Tibet sendiri berhenti melakukan kekerasan.
Dia tidak akan berhenti sebagai pemimpin spiritual.
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Offline nyanadhana

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #26 on: 19 March 2008, 11:40:12 AM »
 _/\_ kalo China ga ngeyel,mereka juga ga bakal merasa terancam. toh sekarang Dalai Lama dengan tindakan begini jadi membingungkan sana sini.Dalam satu pihak,dia ingin China ga menguasai Tibet,satu pihak lagi mengharap org tibet ga menggunakan kekerasan...
lho sekarang masalahnya China yang bunuh2an dulu ama org tibet apakah dalai lama mau org tibetnya habis?kalo ga ada jalan lagi ya serahkan saja Tibet ke China,toh njelimet banget pemikiran satu pihak dari dia.
Sadhana is nothing but where a disciplined one, the love, talks to one’s own soul. It is nothing but where one cleans his own mind.

Offline nyanadhana

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #27 on: 19 March 2008, 11:42:12 AM »
dari dulu makanya Sang Buddha mengharapkan murid-muridnya tidak terlibat dalam politik,nih hasilnya..tibet,Myanmar,pusing lihat bhikkhu sekarang ini ga ada bedanya ama umat awam. ribut dan ribut melulu.
Sadhana is nothing but where a disciplined one, the love, talks to one’s own soul. It is nothing but where one cleans his own mind.

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #28 on: 19 March 2008, 11:50:38 AM »
ragu pangkal cerah! karena itu mari kita baca argumen kedua belah pihak di bawah ;D

The Chinese History of Tibet
Tibet has been part of China since the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368). Centuries ago Mongol and Manchu Emperors ruled or influenced large parts of Asia. During the Tang period (618-907), the Tibetan King, Songsten Gampo, married Princess Wen Cheng. The Princess is thought to have had alot of influence in Tibet. During the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368), Tibet was part of the Mongol Empire which was under Yuan rule. At this time, the Yuan Government implemented residence registration, levied taxes, and imposed corvee duties in Tibet. China's "White Paper" claims that the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) "replaced the Yuan dynasty in China and inherited the right to rule Tibet." During the Manchu rule (1644-1911), the Qing army on a number of occasions entered Tibet to protect it. Finally, in 1951, China and the Tibetan Local Government signed a 17-point agreement concerning the peaceful liberation of Tibet. During this time, The 14th Dalai Lama supported this liberation and acknowledged Tibet is one part of China.

The Tibetan History of Tibet
Tibet has a recorded history of statehood extending back to 127 B.C. In the seventh to ninth centuries, the Tibetans often bested the Tang dynasty in battle. Additionally, during this dynasty, the marriage of Princess Wen Cheng and King Gampo was viewed as a strategic move to achieve cooperation and peace between Tibet and China. In 821, after centuries of periodic fighting, China and Tibet signed a treaty where boundaries were confirmed, and each country promised respect for the other's territorial sovereignty. During the Yuan dynasty (1271-1368), the Mongol leader, Genghis Khan, conquered most of Eurasia including China. Thus, instead of China claiming a right to Tibet, Mongolia could assert claim to both China and Tibet. There is no historic evidence to support the assumption that the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) ruled Tibet. In fact, the Qing Emperor in 1652 not only accepted The Fifth Dalai Lama as a leader of an independent state, the Emperor also treated Him as a Divinity on Earth. During this period, Tibet was known in Chinese as Wu-si Zang or Wu-si Guo (guo meaning country). During the Manchu rule (1644-1911), the Qing army was asked by Tibetans to settle disputes. But, this does not support China's right to Tibet. If it did, then the U.S.A. should claim Kuwait and Haiti since it assisted these countries. In fact, on a number of occasions, Tibet exercised power over China, suggesting that perhaps Tibet should claim China! At the time of China's invasion in 1949, Tibet possessed all the attributes of an independent country recognized by international law, including a defined territory, a government, tax system, unique currency, unique postal system and stamps, army, and the ability to carryout international relations. Two years later, the 17-point agreement was imposed on the Tibetan Government by the threat of arms after 40,000 PLA troops had already seized Tibetºs eastern provincial capital, Chamdo. The Tibetan delegates were threatened. The seal of the Tibetan Government was forged by Peking. In Tibet, The 14th Dalai Lama could not freely express His disapproval. However, soon after arriving in India, He repudiated this Agreement stating it was "thrust upon the Tibetan Government and people by the threat of arms." If Tibet had always been a part of China, why was there a need for the 17-point agreement? Finally, the Atlas of Chinese History Maps (published by Chinese Social Science Institute in Beijing) depicts Tibet as an independent country that was never part of China at least before 1280.

World Governments Do Not Recognize Tibet: China's Perspective
China asserts that no country has ever recognized Tibet. China also contends that Britain masterminded the Simla Conference (1913-1914) in collusion with Tibetan pro-British individuals. Both wanted to separate Tibet from China. At the time of the Simla Conference, even though the "McMahon Line" was negotiated between Tibet and Britain, at the end of the tripartite conference on Tibet's status and boundaries, Chinese officials who were present refused to recognize the "Line" on the grounds that Tibet was subordinate to China and had no power to make any treaties.

World Governments Recognize Tibet: The Tibetan Perspective

International law states that recognition can occur by explicit or implicit acts including treaties, negotiations, and diplomatic relations. Mongolia and Tibet signed a formal treaty of recognition in 1913. Historically, Nepal and Tibet had peace treaties. Tibetºs independence was also confirmed at the Treaty of Simla (1914) which was concluded by Tibet and British India. In 1949, Tibet maintained diplomatic, economic, and cultural relations with such countries as Nepal, Sikkim, Mongolia, China, British India, and to some extent, Russia and Japan. Further, Nepal maintained an Ambassador in Lhasa and told the U.N. in 1949 that it conducted international relations with Tibet. In fact, Britian, Bhutan, India, and even China also maintained diplomatic missions in Tibet's capitol, Lhasa. The Tibetan Foreign Office conducted talks with President Franklin D. Roosevelt when he sent representatives to Lhasa to discuss the allied war effort against Japan during World War II. In 1950, El Salvador formally requested that China's aggression against Tibet be placed on the agenda of the U.N. General Assembly. The issue was not discussed. However, during four U.N. General Assembly debates on Tibet (1959, 1960, 1961, & 1965), many countries (e.g., Philippines, Nicaragua, Thailand. United States, Ireland) openly stated that Tibet was an independent country illegally occupied by China. In fact, the U.N. passed three resolutions (1959, 1961, & 1965) concerning Tibet stating that Tibetans were deprived of their inalienable rights to self-determination. Even Mao Zedong during the Long March admitted that Tibet was an independent country when he passed through the border regions of Tibet remarking, "This is our only foreign debt, and some day we must pay the Mantzu (sic) and the Tibetans for the provisions we were obliged to take from them." Tibetans clearly constitute a people under international law, as described, for instance, by the UNESCO International Meeting of Experts on Further Study of the Concept of the Rights of Peoples. They are a distinct people and fulfill all the characteristics of this concept: commonality of history, shared language, culture, and ethnicity.

Tibet Was Liberated: Chinaºs Perspective
China states that its invasion and occupation of Tibet was designed to liberate Tibetans from medieval feudal serfdom and slavery. Tibetan serfs were thought to have no freedoms. They were regarded by their masters as talking animals. China argues that the masses of Tibetan serfs lived in extreme poverty. Since the liberation in 1959, China asserts that Tibetans have enjoyed all rights of equality and they have embarked on the road of freedom and happiness. China claims that Tibet is now a modernized community benefitting from economic growth and social progress. Millions of serfs are now the masters of their fate, and large numbers of Tibetan workers, intellectuals, and officials have taken up the task of building and managing Tibet. China argues that all Tibetans now have equal rights in politics, the economy, and in their daily life. Tibetans are also thought to enjoy full religious freedom. China claims that Tibetans have greatly benefitted from their presence. There are now over 2,500 primary schools in Tibet. Moreover, according to Chinaºs White Paper, China has invested 1.1 billion yuans to develop education in Tibet. Big strides have been made in education, science, culture, and public health. For instance, China argues that it has rebuilt Tibetan Monasteries, Nunneries, and monuments. Further, it asserts that the Tibetan population has soared to 2 million from 1 million in the 1950's. China also claims that the Tibetans fully support the Communist Party and Government officials in Tibet. China argues that negotiation is the only solution for Tibet, stating that The 14th Dalai Lama should size up the situation, go with the tide of historical development and make a correct choice.

Tibet Was Not Liberated: The Tibetan Perspective
Old Tibet was not perfect. The current Dalai Lama has admitted this. However, The 14th Dalai Lama initiated far-reaching reforms in Tibet as soon as He assumed temportal authority. Throughout Tibet's history, the mistreatment of peasants was forbidden by law and social norms. The largest portion of land in Tibet was held by peasants. Famine and starvation were unheard of in Tibet. The "liberation" has resulted in the death of over 1.2 million Tibetans and the destruction of over 6,000 Tibetan Monasteries and cultural centers. Before the "liberation" in 1959, the population of Tibet was 6 million. Prior to the invasion, Tibet was a simple and self-reliant nation with a very rich cultural heritage. Tibetºs citizens, in comparison to its' neighbors, enjoyed much greater freedom. Currently, Tibetans have become veritable serfs. In independent Tibet, over 6,000 Monasteries and Nunneries served as schools. Most were destroyed, and many have been reconstructed as result of Tibetan finances and labor. The teachers in China's "new schools" are unqualified to teach the Tibetan language, culture, or history. Chinese students are the main beneficiaries of these schools. Since 1980, over 15,000 Tibetan children have fled Tibet to receive education in India.The primary beneficiaries of Chinaºs presence in Tibet have been the Chinese settlers, their government and military, and their business enterprises. Former Communist Party Secretary, Hu Yaobang, even admitted in 1980 that the living standard of Tibetans had declined since 1959 and that the large Chinese presence was an obstacle to development. China's policies in Tibet do not even receive full support from Tibetan cadres, let alone the Tibetan people. China has never found a trustworthy Tibetan to serve in a key government post in Tibet. For the past 21 years, The Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government In-Exile have offered a number of proposals for negotiations for the mutual benefit of Tibet and China. All have been ignored or rejected by China.

*Note. These views were extracted from various Tibetan and Chinese printed materials.
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Offline nyanadhana

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Re: Tibet Vs China
« Reply #29 on: 19 March 2008, 12:01:14 PM »
ini akibat dogma-dogma plus ritual-ritual yang berakibat fatal. seandainya Dalai Lama mengajarkan liberalis dalam membangun Tibet maka rakyat tidak akan sengsara. ini juga pemikiran reinkarnasi yang paling ga jelas dalam struktur Buddhism. kalau seandainya China ingin menolong,silahkan menolong tanpa bunuh2an.trus kalo ga mau ditolong,mending China urus beberapa daerahnya yang masih sangat sangat miskin,ngebet akan tibet ga ada alasan,daratan China itu luas dan saat ini provinsi di china sendiri mengalami kemiskinan parah,mending benah2 dulu.apa yang tampak diluar sekarang ini,china sangat kuat,indah,tapi buat yang udah pernah pergi keliling china,bakal tahu,struktur memang bagus tapi rakyat masih menderita.
Silahkan mencontoh negara Thailand yang penduduknya juga sama harus menjalani kebhikkhuan namun negara Thailand bisa berkembang jadi negara bagus,ini karena orang mau berbenah dan tidak terperangkap dalam sembahyang2.
« Last Edit: 19 March 2008, 12:03:15 PM by nyanadhana »
Sadhana is nothing but where a disciplined one, the love, talks to one’s own soul. It is nothing but where one cleans his own mind.