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Author Topic: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra  (Read 79262 times)

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Offline Indra

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #15 on: 07 May 2011, 08:40:12 AM »
Kutu buku.

Permainan Kata kata lagi . Dihafal sampai mati, apa bisa menolong?


.........
Patriarch Bodhidharma went to Nan Ching where he listened to Dharma Master Shen Kuang explained the Sutras. When Shen Kuang spoke, the heavens rained fragrant blossoms and a golden-petalled lotus rose from the earth for him to sit upon. However, only those with good roots, who had opened the five eyes8 and the six spiritual penetrations were able to see that. Now! Isn’t this wonderful?
After listening to the Sutra, Bodhidharma asked, “Dharma Master, what are you doing?”
“I am explaining Sutras,” Shen Kuang replied.
“Why are you explaining Sutras?”
“I am teaching people to end birth and death.”
“Oh?” said Bodhidharma, “exactly how do you do that? In this Sutra which you explain, the words are black and the paper is white. How does this teach people to end birth and death?”
Dharma Master Shen Kuang had nothing to say. How did he teach people to end birth and death? He fumed in silence. Then, even though heavenly maidens rained down flowers and the earth gave forth golden lotuses, Dharma Master Shen Kuang got angry.
This is what I mean when I say that the Buddhadharma existed in China, but it was as if it were not there at all.
When angry, Dharma Master Shen Kuang used his heavy iron beads to level opposition. In response to Bodhidharma’s question, he reddened with anger and raged like a tidal wave smashing a mountain. As he whipped out his beads, he snapped, “You are slandering the Dharma!” and cracked Bodhidharma
across the mouth, knocking loose two teeth. Bodhidharma neither moved nor spoke. He hadn’t expected such a vicious reply.
There is a legend about the teeth of holy men. You must not ask about the principle, however, because it is too inconceivable. The legend says that if a sage’s teeth fall to the ground, it won’t rain for three years. Patriarch Bodhidharma thought, “If it doesn’t rain for three years, people will starve! I have come to China to save living beings, not to kill them!” So Bodhidharma did not let his teeth fall to the ground. Instead, he swallowed
them and disappeared down the road. Although he had been beaten and reviled, Bodhidharma could not go to the government and file suit against Dharma Master Shen Kuang. Those who have left home have to be patient. How much more so must a patriarch forbear.

saya lihat andalah yg sibuk bermain kata dan copas sana sini, hingga melupakan topik sebenarnya.

saya ingatkan lagi, pertanyaan dari Bro Kelana adalah
"Hanya ingin bertanya, apakah ada di dalam sutra Mahayana tertulis dimana artinya adalah: All dharmas are impermanent atau semua dharma adalah tidak kekal??"

Offline Indra

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #16 on: 07 May 2011, 08:43:13 AM »
Sama2, Suhu Kelana.

Ada kok. ;D Tapi konteksnya dhamma sebagai bentuk pikiran. Di Okkanta Samyutta, Rupasutta, dijelaskan 6 objek indera berubah. Pada bagian bentukan pikiran disebut: "dhammā aniccā vipariṇāmino aññathābhāvino" (dhamma tidak kekal berganti dan berubah).


walaupun anda benar, tapi hanya dhamma dalam arti yg dimaksud itu saja yg anicca, sedangkan di pihak lain ada jenis dhamma yg tidak termasuk di situ, makanya katta "sabbe" tidak disebutkan di sana. ini bertentangan dengan statement dari bro "Sok maha tahu" bahwa "all dharmas are impermanent"

Offline hendrako

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #17 on: 07 May 2011, 08:53:54 AM »
Ada kok. ;D Tapi konteksnya dhamma sebagai bentuk pikiran. Di Okkanta Samyutta, Rupasutta, dijelaskan 6 objek indera berubah. Pada bagian bentukan pikiran disebut: "dhammā aniccā vipariṇāmino aññathābhāvino" (dhamma tidak kekal berganti dan berubah).


walaupun anda benar, tapi hanya dhamma dalam arti yg dimaksud itu saja yg anicca, sedangkan di pihak lain ada jenis dhamma yg tidak termasuk di situ, makanya katta "sabbe" tidak disebutkan di sana. ini bertentangan dengan statement dari bro "Sok maha tahu" bahwa "all dharmas are impermanent"

Seingat ane,
Nibbana bukan sankhara (anicca + dukkha)
Tapi, Nibbana termasuk Dhamma (anatta)

Karena Nibbana termasuk Dhamma, maka Dhamma tidak dikatakan anicca dan dukkha, tetapi (hanya) anatta.

yaa... gitu deh

Offline Kelana

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #18 on: 07 May 2011, 09:19:33 AM »
Kutu buku.

Permainan Kata kata lagi . Dihafal sampai mati, apa bisa menolong?........


Hanya itu saja Sdr. Djoe? Dimanakah jawabannya?

Btw, hanya penasaran, jika seseorang yang hanya bertanya mengenai suatu kalimat ada atau tidak dalam sutra dinilai sebagai kutu buku, lalu bagaimana anda menilainya, menyebut Master Hsuan Hua yang jelas-jelas komentarnya berdasarkan Sutra, ia tidak mungkin tidak membaca sutra atau tidak menghafalnya? Apakah anda akan menyebutnya raja kutu buku?

Lalu bagaimana anda menilai dan menyebut anda sendiri yang hanya meng-copy paste tulisan Master Hsuan Hua sejak awal anda bergabung di DC? Apakah anda menyebut diri anda kucing pengcopi berkutu-buku?

Saya tetap menungu jawaban, ada atau tidak dari pertanyaan:
Apakah ada di dalam sutra Mahayana tertulis dimana artinya adalah: All dharmas are impermanent atau semua dharma adalah tidak kekal?
GKBU
 
_/\_ suvatthi hotu


- finire -

Offline djoe

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #19 on: 07 May 2011, 09:29:07 AM »
Hanya itu saja Sdr. Djoe? Dimanakah jawabannya?

Btw, hanya penasaran, jika seseorang yang hanya bertanya mengenai suatu kalimat ada atau tidak dalam sutra dinilai sebagai kutu buku, lalu bagaimana anda menilainya, menyebut Master Hsuan Hua yang jelas-jelas komentarnya berdasarkan Sutra, ia tidak mungkin tidak membaca sutra atau tidak menghafalnya? Apakah anda akan menyebutnya raja kutu buku?

Lalu bagaimana anda menilai dan menyebut anda sendiri yang hanya meng-copy paste tulisan Master Hsuan Hua sejak awal anda bergabung di DC? Apakah anda menyebut diri anda kucing pengcopi berkutu-buku?

Saya tetap menungu jawaban, ada atau tidak dari pertanyaan:
Apakah ada di dalam sutra Mahayana tertulis dimana artinya adalah: All dharmas are impermanent atau semua dharma adalah tidak kekal?

Maaf saya orang bodoh, tidak bisa menghafal seperti saudara - saudara lain yang sangat pintar menghafa sutra/sutta.
Lihat link ini http://dhammacitta.org/forum/index.php?topic=735.0;message=345507

Ada bedanya seorang kutu buku dengan seorang bijaksana yang anda sebut kutu buku.

Seorang kutu buku ketika diperlihatkan buku, ia akan bertanya ini dari mana. Ia hanya terlibat dalam kata - kata lagi. Mencari sana sini, Tanpa bisa melihat kebenaran dan tujuan dia mencari

Seorang bijaksana ketika diperlihatkan buku ia akan mencerna dan menggali kebenaran dan memahami kebenaran di dalamnya tanpa perlu bertanya ini sumbernya dari mana hanya sekedar untuk mencocokan kata - kata.
Ketika kebenaran sudah dipahami, apa gunanya bertanya lagi?
« Last Edit: 07 May 2011, 09:33:56 AM by djoe »

Offline djoe

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #20 on: 07 May 2011, 09:36:49 AM »
saya lihat andalah yg sibuk bermain kata dan copas sana sini, hingga melupakan topik sebenarnya.

saya ingatkan lagi, pertanyaan dari Bro Kelana adalah
"Hanya ingin bertanya, apakah ada di dalam sutra Mahayana tertulis dimana artinya adalah: All dharmas are impermanent atau semua dharma adalah tidak kekal??"

Ada atau tidak, apa gunaya jika tidak bisa memahami kebenaran itu. Jika kebenaran sudah dipahami, apa lagi yang harus ditanyakan?


Offline djoe

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #21 on: 07 May 2011, 09:40:46 AM »

In the past, five hundred bhikùus became doubtful and disbelieved when they heard the emptiness dharma of praj¤à. Arising from their seats, they departed. The Bodhisattva Net Brightness instructed the Brahmà God Beneficial Consideration to devise an expedient means to instruct them.

The Brahmà God replied, “Even if they were allowed to depart for as many kalpas as there are grains of sand in the Ganges River, they could not get out of this Dharma door. They are like a fool who, fearing emptiness, tries to walk away from emptiness. No matter where he goes, he does not leave emptiness behind. Those bhikùus are just like that. Although they may go a long way, they cannot leave the mark of emptiness.

“They are also like a man who seeks emptiness. Racing east and west he says, ‘I want emptiness! I want emptiness!’
That man merely says the name of emptiness; he does not perceive emptiness. Those bhikùus are also like that. Desiring to attain nirvàõa, they practice in the midst of nirvàõa and do not attain it. For what reason? Nirvàõa is merely a name, and just like emptiness which is merely a name, it cannot be obtained.Ÿ

We who investigate the Buddha’s teaching should know that the Buddha’s teaching is the teaching of the Dharmarealm; it is not differentiated into national traditions. The Buddha’s teaching is the teaching of all people; it is not divided by regional interests. The Buddha’s teaching is the teaching of living beings; it is without racial prejudice. The Buddha said, “All living beings have the Buddha-nature. All can become Buddhas.Ÿ Whether you believe or not makes no difference because eventually you will come to believe. It is only a matter of time. Since nothing can go beyond the Dharmarealm, everything is equally enveloped by the Buddhadharma. What more is there to say?



Offline kuswanto

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #22 on: 07 May 2011, 09:42:31 AM »
Ada atau tidak, apa gunaya jika tidak bisa memahami kebenaran itu. Jika kebenaran sudah dipahami, apa lagi yang harus ditanyakan?

anda sudah paham kebenaran dharma? anda sudah tercerahkan?.. saya sih belum..  ;D ;D makanya masih berkutat di forum ini..

anda sudah paham kebenaran dharma? anda sudah tercerahkan?.. saya sih belum, makanya saya masih memiliki kemungkinan salah..

anda sudah paham kebenaran dharma? anda sudah tercerahkan?  kalau anda belum, apakah mungkin pemikiran anda sekarang salah?

saya belum paham kebenaran dharma, saya belum tercerahkan, jadi sangat mungkin pemikiran saya yang sekarang ini tidak lah benar...

anda?

Spoiler: ShowHide
moga2 di jawab secara lugas.. gak pake jurus "taksi argo"  _/\_

Offline K.K.

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #23 on: 07 May 2011, 09:51:52 AM »
walaupun anda benar, tapi hanya dhamma dalam arti yg dimaksud itu saja yg anicca, sedangkan di pihak lain ada jenis dhamma yg tidak termasuk di situ, makanya katta "sabbe" tidak disebutkan di sana. ini bertentangan dengan statement dari bro "Sok maha tahu" bahwa "all dharmas are impermanent"
Sebetulnya sederhana. Mungkin sebagian orang di sini masih ingat waktu Bro Tan menanyakan, "hukum anicca itu sendiri kekal atau tidak?"

"Semua yang terkondisi adalah tidak kekal dan tidak memuaskan" adalah sebuah kebenaran (dhamma). Kebenaran adalah tidak lekang oleh waktu, dengan kata lain adalah kekal (=sampai kapanpun, semua yang berkondisi adalah tidak kekal). Hal ini bukan hanya nibbana saja, tapi termasuk aspek dalam samsara. Kalau kebenaran itu berubah, berarti sesuai dengan I Kuan Tao bahwa pancaran dharma berubah-ubah sesuai 'warnanya'.
Walaupun kebenaran adalah kekal, namun dalam kebenaran apapun tidak ada diri di sana; tidak di dalam/luar/di antara/di manapun, maka dikatakan sabbe dhamma anatta.

Betul, 'dhamma anicca' yang saya kutip sebelumnya adalah dalam konteks bentuk pikiran saja. Apa yang dipersepsi pikiran tidak kekal.

Offline Kelana

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #24 on: 07 May 2011, 09:52:19 AM »
Maaf saya orang bodoh, tidak bisa menghafal seperti saudara - saudara lain yang sangat pintar menghafa sutra/sutta.
Lihat link ini http://dhammacitta.org/forum/index.php?topic=735.0;message=345507

Ada bedanya seorang kutu buku dengan seorang bijaksana yang anda sebut kutu buku.

Seorang kutu buku ketika diperlihatkan buku, ia akan bertanya ini dari mana. Ia hanya terlibat dalam kata - kata lagi. Mencari sana sini, Tanpa bisa melihat kebenaran dan tujuan dia mencari

Seorang bijaksana ketika diperlihatkan buku ia akan mencerna dan menggali kebenaran dan memahami kebenaran di dalamnya tanpa perlu bertanya ini sumbernya dari mana hanya sekedar untuk mencocokan kata - kata.
Ketika kebenaran sudah dipahami, apa gunanya bertanya lagi?

Anda mengatakan dalam link tsb:
Tetapi paling tidak saya tahu untuk tidak mengandalkan kata - kata.

Tapi sekarang sepertinya anda  bermain kata-kata.

KBBI:
Kutu buku ki orang yg senang membaca dan menelaah buku di mana saja;

---
Jadi nampaknya kriteria “kutu buku” bukanlah orang yang bertanya “ini dari mana”

Dan dalam topik ini saya tidak pernah menyatakan, menilai seseorang itu kutu buku, tapi bertanya.

Saya tetap menungu jawaban, ada atau tidak dari pertanyaan:
Apakah ada di dalam sutra Mahayana tertulis dimana artinya adalah: All dharmas are impermanent atau semua dharma adalah tidak kekal?
GKBU
 
_/\_ suvatthi hotu


- finire -

Offline Indra

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #25 on: 07 May 2011, 09:52:57 AM »
Ada atau tidak, apa gunaya jika tidak bisa memahami kebenaran itu. Jika kebenaran sudah dipahami, apa lagi yang harus ditanyakan?



nah itu dia, karena kami masih belum memahami kebenaran, makanya kami punya banyak pertanyaan yg harus dijawab oleh seorang yg telah memahami kebenaran seperti anda.

Offline K.K.

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #26 on: 07 May 2011, 09:53:30 AM »
Maaf saya orang bodoh, tidak bisa menghafal seperti saudara - saudara lain yang sangat pintar menghafa sutra/sutta.
Lihat link ini http://dhammacitta.org/forum/index.php?topic=735.0;message=345507

Ada bedanya seorang kutu buku dengan seorang bijaksana yang anda sebut kutu buku.

Seorang kutu buku ketika diperlihatkan buku, ia akan bertanya ini dari mana. Ia hanya terlibat dalam kata - kata lagi. Mencari sana sini, Tanpa bisa melihat kebenaran dan tujuan dia mencari

Seorang bijaksana ketika diperlihatkan buku ia akan mencerna dan menggali kebenaran dan memahami kebenaran di dalamnya tanpa perlu bertanya ini sumbernya dari mana hanya sekedar untuk mencocokan kata - kata.
Ketika kebenaran sudah dipahami, apa gunanya bertanya lagi?
Namun yang paling bijaksana adalah ketika ditanya, menyodorkan hasil copy-paste dan link sana-sini, namun tidak menjawab pertanyaan dan pura-pura bodoh.

Offline djoe

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #27 on: 07 May 2011, 09:59:01 AM »
Chapter 21
Spoken Yet Not Spoken

“Subhåti, do not say the Tathàgata has the thought, ‘I have spoken Dharma.’ Do not think that way. And why? If someone says the Tathàgata has spoken Dharma he slanders the Buddha due to his inability to understand what I say. Subhåti, in the Dharma spoken there is no Dharma which can be spoken, therefore it is called the Dharma spoken.Ÿ
Then the sagacious Subhåti said to the Buddha, “World Honored One, will there be living beings in the future who will believe this Såtra when they hear it spoken?Ÿ
The Buddha said, “Subhåti, they are neither living beings nor no living beings. And why? Subhåti, living beings, living beings, are spoken of by the Tathàgata as no living beings, therefore they are called living beings.Ÿ

Commentary :
The Buddha then addressed Subhåti. “Do not say that the Tathàgata thinks, ‘I have spoken Dharma.’ Do not say the Buddha has spoken Dharma. I do not think like that, and you should not think that way either. Someone who says that the Tathàgata has spoken Dharma thereby slanders the Buddha.
Such a person does not understand the Buddhadharma.Ÿ“The Buddha spoke dharma for forty-nine years,Ÿ
you say. “Many såtras remain. How can one say he did not speak Dharma?Ÿ

Once Ma¤ju÷rã Bodhisattva asked, “Will the Buddha please once again turn the Dharma wheel?Ÿ

The Buddha replied, “Ma¤ju÷rã, in forty-nine years I have not spoken one word. How can you ask me to turn the Dharma wheel again? Does that not imply that in the past I have already turned the Dharma wheel?Ÿ

That is what is meant by speaking yet not speaking.

Once Subhåti was sitting in a cave cultivating and a god came scattering flowers. “Who has come to scatter flowers?Ÿ asked Subhåti.
 “The god øakra,Ÿ came the reply. “øakra has come to scatter flowers.Ÿ
 “Why have you come here to scatter flowers?Ÿ asked Subhåti.
øakra said, “Because the Venerable One speaks praj¤à well, I have come to make offerings.Ÿ
Subhåti said, “I have not said one word. How can you say I speak praj¤à?Ÿ
øakra replied, “The Venerable One has not spoken and I have not heard a thing. Nothing spoken and nothing heard: that is true praj¤à.Ÿ

You think it over. Nothing spoken and nothing heard is true praj¤à. Have you heard praj¤à? If not, that is true praj¤à.
In the same way, this section says, “If someone says the Tathàgata has spoken Dharma, he slanders the Buddha.Ÿ
To deviate from the såtras by one word is to practice the speech of demons.
Yet to attach to the såtras when speaking is tantamount to slandering the Buddha.
What should then be done?

Why is it said that the Buddha did not speak Dharma? It is because the Buddha is without a mark of self, without a mark of others, without a mark of living beings. Being without all marks is being without a general physical appearance and without the perfection of marks.

Since the Buddha is free of all marks, how can one say, “The Buddha speaks Dharma.Ÿ? How can that not be slander of the Buddha?
The Buddha simultaneously speaks Dharma and sweeps it away.
He speaks it and sweeps it away, just as if he were sweeping the floor. Who speaks? Who sweeps? Who speaks and who cleans so that every last bit of filth is swept away?

Why is it slander to say that the Buddha spoke Dharma?
It is because someone who makes that statement has not thoroughly understood that the Dharma the Buddha spoke is without any real substance.

Dharma is spoken because living beings make discriminations. If you made no discriminations, there would be no Dharma to speak.

Then the sagacious Subhåti said to the Buddha, “World Honored One, will there be living beings in the future who will believe this Såtra when they hear it spoken?Ÿ Sagacious refers to the fact that Subhåti was an elder with wisdom and experience.
The Buddha said, “Subhåti, they are neither living beings…. They certainly are not living beings, because they have already resolved their hearts on the Bodhisattva Way. …nor no living beings.

Although they have produced the hearts of Bodhi-sattvas, their cultivation still is not perfected. Since it is not perfected, they are not not living beings. On the one hand they are definitely not living beings, but at the same time they still exist as living beings.

Why? Living beings, those who have the causal conditions to become living beings, are spoken of by the Buddha as no living beings. They are living beings who have resolved their hearts on the Bodhisattva Way, and so are not common, ordinary living beings.

The following words did not appear in early translations of the Såtra, but were added to later editions:
Then the Sagacious Subhåti said to the Buddha, “World Honored One, will there be living beings in the future who will believe this Såtra when they hear it spoken?Ÿ

The Buddha said, “Subhåti, they are neither living beings nor no living beings. And why? Subhåti, living beings, living beings, are spoken of by the Tathàgata as no living beings, therefore they are called living beings.Ÿ

In the past there was a Dharma Master who fell ill, died, and went before King Yama, who asked him, “After you were born what did you do?Ÿ
The Dharma Master reflected and said, “What I did most in my life was recite the Vajra Såtra.Ÿ
King Yama said, “That’s good. You recited the Vajra Såtra. Excellent. Sit down.Ÿ King Yama then asked the
Dharma Master to recite the Såtra for him.

When the Dharma Master finished the recitation King Yama said, “Your recitation of the Vajra Såtra was short by
one paragraph.Ÿ You will find the additional words carved on a stone tablet at Chung Li Temple in Hao Chou. Go there and find them, and then inform everyone in the world about them. You have worked hard in your recitation of the Såtra, so, although it is time for you to die, I will grant you ten more years of life so you can return to the world and encourage everyone to recite the Vajra Såtra.

The Dharma Master came to life again and requested the emperor to send a message to Chung Li Temple to find
the section of text. There, carved on a stone tablet, was the Vajra Såtra and it contained the additional paragraph. Early translations of the Såtra did not have those words, but all later editions contained them.

Chapter 22
There is No Dharma which can be Obtained
Obtained

Subhåti said to the Buddha, “World Honored One, is it that the Tathàgata in attaining Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi did not attain anything?Ÿ The Buddha said, “So it is, so it is, Subhåti. As to Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi, there is not even the slight-est dharma which I could attain, therefore it is called Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi.Ÿ

Commentary :

After the Buddha had said that living beings were not living beings and not not living beings, Subhåti asked, “In
attaining the Unsurpassed, Proper and Equal, Right Enlight-enment, the one resultant dharma of Buddhahood, there is not even the slightest dharma to be attained. Therefore it is called Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi.

That is merely a false name, nothing more.’ There is no actual substance which one can point to and say, “That is Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi.Ÿ Why is there not even the smallest dharma which can be
attained
?

The principle was discussed before: If you want to know if something is attainable, you first must know if it has been lost. If it was certain that Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi had been lost, then you could retrieve it.

 But basically you have not lost it. It is what you have always had your basic nature. “In your clothing is a priceless gem, do not further seek outside.Ÿ Do not go outside in search of anything. The priceless gem is within your clothing. Cut open your clothing and you will see it.
Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi, the Unsurpassed, Proper and Equal, Right Enlightenment, is a special name for the
perfect, full Buddha-fruit.
Your Buddha-fruit is certainly not something that can be attained from outside. That which is called Anuttarasaüyaksaübodhi also does not come from outside. It is what you have always had: your inherent family treasure. The riches are within your own household.

If you turn away and seek outside you will be abandoning what you have had all along. You will not find anything that way.

Seperti orang yang mengatakan I want emptyness, I want emptyness

Offline Indra

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #28 on: 07 May 2011, 10:00:31 AM »
seperti thread spam ya?

Offline djoe

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Re: Vajra Prajña Paramita Sutra
« Reply #29 on: 07 May 2011, 10:00:52 AM »
nah itu dia, karena kami masih belum memahami kebenaran, makanya kami punya banyak pertanyaan yg harus dijawab oleh seorang yg telah memahami kebenaran seperti anda.

Anda sekarang melekat dengan kebenaran dan mencarinya dari orang lain (luar). Seperti orang yang berteriak I want emptyness yang diceritakan di posting atas
Kebenaran itu ada didalam diri anda, Cari sendiri