//honeypot demagogic

 Forum DhammaCitta. Forum Diskusi Buddhis Indonesia

Author Topic: Seperti apakah Jhana itu (Menurut Sutta) ?  (Read 117342 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Sumedho

  • Kebetulan
  • Administrator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 12.406
  • Reputasi: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • not self
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #15 on: 20 July 2007, 09:46:17 AM »
hmmm, tapi aye lagi mau refer ke sutta dulu nih suhu morph.
Sering kali tiap guru meditasi memberikan definisi sendiri, yah masuk akal tetapi kalau diperhatikan ke Sutta, berbeda lagi. Diposting sebelumnya ada kutipan jhana 3 sendiri masih bisa merasakan tubuh

Quote
With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.'

« Last Edit: 20 July 2007, 09:51:45 AM by Sumedho »
There is no place like 127.0.0.1

Offline morpheus

  • Global Moderator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 2.750
  • Reputasi: 110
  • Ragu pangkal cerah!
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #16 on: 20 July 2007, 09:48:25 AM »
Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond: A Meditator's Handbook
http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-Bliss-Beyond-Meditators-Handbook/dp/0861712757

bahasanya cukup gampang dimengerti.
tapi warning duluan nih, ajahn brahm keliatannya (jelas banget) dari kubu samatha, jadi pandangannya condong ke samatha dan beberapa cara2 meditasi yg udah lazim kita denger diajarkan berbeda dengan yg orthodox...
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Offline morpheus

  • Global Moderator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 2.750
  • Reputasi: 110
  • Ragu pangkal cerah!
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #17 on: 20 July 2007, 10:00:14 AM »
hmmm, tapi aye lagi mau refer ke sutta dulu nih suhu morph.
Sering kali tiap guru meditasi memberikan definisi sendiri, yah masuk akal tetapi kalau diperhatikan ke Sutta, berbeda lagi. Diposting sebelumnya ada kutipan jhana 3 sendiri masih bisa merasakan tubuh

Quote
With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.'
apa mungkin "physically sensitive of pleasure" itu cuman kata2 untuk menggambarkan sukha (atau bliss) yg didapat dari jhana? mungkinkah physical di sana bukan bener2 physical?

"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...

soal jhana sih owe gak terlalu binun2, soalnya komentar semua guru meditasi rata2 sama dan sejalan... komentar buku2 meditasi juga rata2 sama...
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Offline Kokuzo

  • Sebelumnya 7th
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 2.090
  • Reputasi: 30
  • Gender: Male
  • ... running in karma ...
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #18 on: 20 July 2007, 10:04:07 AM »
hm... newbie diem aja ah...
duduk manis liatin aja...  :|

Offline Sumedho

  • Kebetulan
  • Administrator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 12.406
  • Reputasi: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • not self
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #19 on: 20 July 2007, 10:07:44 AM »
Kalau kita menganggap physical bukan physical beneran juga menurut saya sih agak memaksa.
Dari potongan yg suhu berikan, itu juga jelas body yang dimaksud adalah tubuh fisik.

Definisi yang sama itu rata-rata berdasarkan abhidhamma dan visuddhimagga. Aye mencoba melihat dari sisi Sutta.

Atau... definisi Jhana yang dimaksud di Sutta berbeda dengan Jhana yang dimaksud misalnya Ajahn Brahms ?
There is no place like 127.0.0.1

Offline morpheus

  • Global Moderator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 2.750
  • Reputasi: 110
  • Ragu pangkal cerah!
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #20 on: 20 July 2007, 10:11:53 AM »
kalo nyang dibawah ini pigimana suhu?

Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied thought and sustained thought with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. (M.i,1818; Vbh.245)
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Offline Sumedho

  • Kebetulan
  • Administrator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 12.406
  • Reputasi: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • not self
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #21 on: 20 July 2007, 10:18:29 AM »
itu potongan depannya apa yah ? place that quite secluded from sense pleasure bukan ?

potongan mirip2xnya begini sih

quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities,

menurut penerawangan sih itu artinya pergi meninggalkan pemuasan indra yang memberikan kondisi, tapi bukan tidak bisa merasakan badan.
There is no place like 127.0.0.1

Offline morpheus

  • Global Moderator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 2.750
  • Reputasi: 110
  • Ragu pangkal cerah!
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #22 on: 20 July 2007, 10:29:50 AM »
ini suhu:

"What, friend, is the first jhana?"

"There is the case, friend, where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This is called the first jhana."

"And how many factors does the first jhana have?"

"The first jhana has five factors. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the five-factored first jhana, there occurs directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that the first jhana has five factors."

"And how many factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with how many is it endowed?"

"Five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five is it endowed. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the first jhana, sensual desire is abandoned, ill will is abandoned, sloth & torpor is abandoned, restlessness & anxiety is abandoned, uncertainty is abandoned. And there occur directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five it is endowed."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

*bongkar2 access to insight*
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.011.than.html
« Last Edit: 20 July 2007, 10:33:13 AM by morpheus »
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Offline Sumedho

  • Kebetulan
  • Administrator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 12.406
  • Reputasi: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • not self
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #23 on: 20 July 2007, 11:04:46 AM »
thanks suhu.

Tetap saja tidak ada indikasi bahwa Jhana 1, tidak bisa merasakan apapun dari indra.  ???


Quote
The first jhana
"What, friend, is the first jhana?"

"There is the case, friend, where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This is called the first jhana."

"And how many factors does the first jhana have?"

"The first jhana has five factors. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the five-factored first jhana, there occurs directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that the first jhana has five factors."

"And how many factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with how many is it endowed?"

"Five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five is it endowed. There is the case where, in a monk who has attained the first jhana, sensual desire is abandoned, ill will is abandoned, sloth & torpor is abandoned, restlessness & anxiety is abandoned, uncertainty is abandoned. And there occur directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & singleness of mind. It's in this way that five factors are abandoned in the first jhana, and with five it is endowed."
There is no place like 127.0.0.1

Offline morpheus

  • Global Moderator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 2.750
  • Reputasi: 110
  • Ragu pangkal cerah!
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #24 on: 20 July 2007, 11:07:24 AM »
tul. dah bongkar access to insight, semua sutta deskripsinya sama :-?
* I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it
* Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path

Offline Sumedho

  • Kebetulan
  • Administrator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 12.406
  • Reputasi: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • not self
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #25 on: 20 July 2007, 11:29:21 AM »
Kalau menurut definisi Sutta, tentu kondisi Jhana tidak seberat di visuddhimagga.
Personally sih aye prefer Sutta.

Tentang masuk ke Jhana juga di sutta tidak ada, tapi di visudhimagga itu dijelaskan ada nimitta dan memainkan peranan penting. Kalau nimitta itu penting, kenapa tidak ada di sutta ?

Gimana kalau kita diskusi based on sutta di thread ini ?

Apakah teman2x pernah ke Jhana 1 (versi Sutta) ?
There is no place like 127.0.0.1

Offline Kokuzo

  • Sebelumnya 7th
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 2.090
  • Reputasi: 30
  • Gender: Male
  • ... running in karma ...
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #26 on: 20 July 2007, 12:20:30 PM »
wah ni dua detektif semangat bener...

saya ga tau kk... nubi... yang kemaren itu Jhana ato bukan juga ga tau... lagian masa meditasi pertama langsung Jhana... ga mungkeen...  ;D

Offline Sumedho

  • Kebetulan
  • Administrator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 12.406
  • Reputasi: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • not self
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #27 on: 20 July 2007, 12:58:40 PM »
ini Check list nya

Harus ada di jhana 1:
1. Directed Thought (mengarahkan pada objek)
2. Evaluation (evaluasi atau tetap pada objek)
3. Rapture (kenikmatan)
4. Pleasure (kesenangan/kepuasan)
5. Singleness of mind (keterpusatan pikiran)

Yang sudah tidak ada ketika jhana 1
1. Sensual Desire (keinginan sensua)
2. Ill will (keinginan buruk/tidak baik/jahat)
3. sloth & torpor (kemalasan)
4. restlessness & anxiety (gelisah)
5. Uncertainty (keraguan, mis, udah sampe belon yaaah, bener nga yaah)

gitu loh checklistnya. Kalau itu semua terpenuhi, Jhana 1


« Last Edit: 20 July 2007, 01:31:10 PM by Sumedho »
There is no place like 127.0.0.1

Offline Kokuzo

  • Sebelumnya 7th
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 2.090
  • Reputasi: 30
  • Gender: Male
  • ... running in karma ...
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #28 on: 20 July 2007, 01:24:56 PM »
Harus ada di jhana 1:
1. Directed Thought (pemikiran yg diarahkan) - maksudnya konsentrasi kan? kalo iya,ada...
2. Evaluation (evaluasi atau - mengevaluasi kenikmatan itu termasuk?
3. Rapture (kenikmatan) - ada... (nih yang bikin penasaran makanya)
4. Pleasure (kesenangan/kepuasan) - ada...
5. Singleness of mind (keterpusatan pikiran) - ada... tetapi terpecah ketika kenikmatan muncul

Yang sudah tidak ada ketika jhana 1
1. Sensual Desire (keinginan sensua) - tidak ada
2. Ill will (keinginan buruk/tidak baik/jahat) - tidak ada
3. sloth & torpor (kemalasan) - tidak ada
4. restlessness & anxiety (gelisah) - tidak ada, tetapi ketika kenikmatan muncul langsung mulai gelisah...
5. Uncertainty (keraguan, mis, udah sampe belon yaaah, bener nga yaah) - saat itu tidak ada... tapi sekarang iya...

 :-?

Offline Sumedho

  • Kebetulan
  • Administrator
  • KalyanaMitta
  • *****
  • Posts: 12.406
  • Reputasi: 423
  • Gender: Male
  • not self
Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #29 on: 20 July 2007, 01:28:54 PM »
eh lupa, itu semua bersamaan yah diwaktu bermeditasi.

Karena ekagatta / keterpusatan pikiran buyar ketika kenikmatan muncul yaah batal deh jhana 1-nya.
« Last Edit: 20 July 2007, 01:32:18 PM by Sumedho »
There is no place like 127.0.0.1

 

anything