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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #30 on: 07 October 2009, 04:24:59 PM »
^
^

Yg kontroversinya fakta sejarah atau cuma karangan? demikian sebaliknya....nah kontroversinya muncul duluan atau belakangan dan apakah kontroversi itu berdasarkan fakta sejarah. Kalau tidak ya isapan jempol juga.
Dan sebaiknya ikutin fakta sejarah...kalo dari dulu sih memang Zhu ge ditokohkan jago.

Menurut fakta sejarah pak, contoh kalo di cerita luo guan zhong, kayak pertarungan red clif peran si zhuge liang besar amit, tapi kalo dari catatan san guo zhi karangan zhen shuo, justru yang peranannya besar si Zhou yu, Zhou Yu butuh tenaga jendral darat yang ahli itu didapatkan dari liu bei, Zhuge liang cuman jadi juru bicara doang, bahkan kalo dari catatan san guo zhi yang pintar tuh malahan istrinya zhuge liang, bahkan tokoh Guan kong meninggal karena Zhuge liang tidak menyukai beliau karena pengaruh di kerajaan sangat besar dan dipercaya sama liu Bei. banyak hal yang jadi kontroversinya lokh kebanyakan masyarakat ikut karangan lou guan zhong karena tenar duluan. dan san guo zhi karangan zhen suo kalah populer.
Guan Gong meninggal ? Maksudnya Guan Yu ? bukankah waktu itu Guan Yu yang menghadang Cao2 dan akhirnya melepaskannya mengingat Cao2 sangat baik kepadanya.

Gw belum menemukan literatur yang pasti yang menyatakan karangan zhen shuo yang benar.
Bro ada literatur ilmiahnya ?

 

ada bos
ini link bukunye
http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/zhugeliang.php
http://kongming.net/novel/bios/type.php#sgz

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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #31 on: 07 October 2009, 04:31:35 PM »
^
^

duh bro.. jawab yang serius donk..
ditanyain bukti ilmiah karangan zhen shou yang benar
koq ada giniannya

Copyright © 2002 Jack Yuan
Translated from Chen Shou’s Sanguozhi
All Rights Reserved
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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #32 on: 07 October 2009, 04:36:56 PM »
^
^

Yg kontroversinya fakta sejarah atau cuma karangan? demikian sebaliknya....nah kontroversinya muncul duluan atau belakangan dan apakah kontroversi itu berdasarkan fakta sejarah. Kalau tidak ya isapan jempol juga.
Dan sebaiknya ikutin fakta sejarah...kalo dari dulu sih memang Zhu ge ditokohkan jago.

Menurut fakta sejarah pak, contoh kalo di cerita luo guan zhong, kayak pertarungan red clif peran si zhuge liang besar amit, tapi kalo dari catatan san guo zhi karangan zhen shuo, justru yang peranannya besar si Zhou yu, Zhou Yu butuh tenaga jendral darat yang ahli itu didapatkan dari liu bei, Zhuge liang cuman jadi juru bicara doang, bahkan kalo dari catatan san guo zhi yang pintar tuh malahan istrinya zhuge liang, bahkan tokoh Guan kong meninggal karena Zhuge liang tidak menyukai beliau karena pengaruh di kerajaan sangat besar dan dipercaya sama liu Bei. banyak hal yang jadi kontroversinya lokh kebanyakan masyarakat ikut karangan lou guan zhong karena tenar duluan. dan san guo zhi karangan zhen suo kalah populer.
Guan Gong meninggal ? Maksudnya Guan Yu ? bukankah waktu itu Guan Yu yang menghadang Cao2 dan akhirnya melepaskannya mengingat Cao2 sangat baik kepadanya.

Gw belum menemukan literatur yang pasti yang menyatakan karangan zhen shuo yang benar.
Bro ada literatur ilmiahnya ?

 

ada bos
ini link bukunye
http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/zhugeliang.php
http://kongming.net/novel/bios/type.php#sgz

Data tidak valid
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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #33 on: 07 October 2009, 04:38:41 PM »
^
^

duh bro.. jawab yang serius donk..
ditanyain bukti ilmiah karangan zhen shou yang benar
koq ada giniannya

Copyright © 2002 Jack Yuan
Translated from Chen Shou’s Sanguozhi
All Rights Reserved

yup, berdasarkan sejarah aslinya, karena Chen sou hidup di jaman era Tiga kerajaan, bahkan pernah bekerja di negara shu, sebelum dia jadi anak buah dari dinasti jin

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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #34 on: 07 October 2009, 04:45:26 PM »
Chen Shou itu siapa?, apa pekerjaannya?, dan catatan sejarah dia disimpan dimana? dan perlu diteliti apakah dia menulis ada keberpihakan.... ? bro sudah baca buku Chen Shou yg aslinya? atau cuma copas link saja?

Apakah Tulisan Chen Shou juga dijadikan dasar sejarah negara Tiongkok.?
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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #35 on: 07 October 2009, 04:47:09 PM »
Thread ini seperti lagi bahas film Red Cliff-2..
Hehehe.. ^_^

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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #36 on: 07 October 2009, 04:56:49 PM »
gini lho bro.. kalau menurut chen shou's walau dia hidup di era tiga negara sekali pun namun tidak menjadikan tulisan dia sebagai bukti sejarah, karena apa ? dia baru berumur 1 tahun setelah Zhuge Liang meninggal, padahal perang dengan Cao Cao / Red Cliff terjadi di tahun 208.
Dan Chen Shou juga belum lahir saat itu

bagaimana bisa dijadikan patokan kebenaran ?

Chen Shou
Historian of Jin Dynasty
Born    233
Died    297

Chancellor of Shu Han
Born    181
Yinan, Shandong, China
Died    234, aged 52-53

Source umur dr wikipedia. Memang blm tentu akurat, dan misal ada yg menemukan literatur umur yg lbh akurat dipersilahkan
« Last Edit: 07 October 2009, 05:29:44 PM by Forte »
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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #37 on: 08 October 2009, 01:16:30 PM »
^
^
Kopas lagi akh ^-^
Pak u jangan baca yang versi wikipediannya baca versi Eksklopedia Chinese history part 1, Justru si lou guan zhong ambil cerita dari chen sou, justru pencatat sejarah aslinya tuh Chen shou, tapi tulisannya kurang populer dan tata bahasanya tidak rapi makanya di perbaiki dari luo Guan zhong. Lagi pula novel tulisan luo tuh ngak 100% berdasarkan fakta, hanya 95 % saja, sisanya karangan belaka,

Contohnya saja kayak Guan gong Melintasi lima kota aslinya hanya dua kota, sisanya hanyalah pedesaaan. banyak hal luo itu mengubahnya agar tertarik di baca. contoh lain lima jendral macan dalam karangan luo Guan zhong, aslinya cuman Guan Gong dan Zhang Fei.

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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #38 on: 08 October 2009, 01:27:42 PM »
oh.. ada linknya bro.. jadi kita bisa trace sama2..

ini menarik sekali soalnya.. karena basically, saya hanya mengetahui karya LGZ
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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #39 on: 08 October 2009, 01:48:21 PM »
link mengenai sejarah si Chen sou ?



buktinya Chen sou ada lokh

The Ten-Thousand-Volume Tower was the place where Chen Shou read books in his youth. Located in the Xishan Scenic Spot in Nanchong of Sichuan Province, the tower took its first appearance in Jianxing period (222-237) during the time of the Three Kingdoms. The extant tower was rebuilt in 1990. In the middle of the courtyard is a bronze sculpture of Chen Shou, holding a roll of bamboo slips in his hands and wearing a radiant expression on his face.

Bukti sejarah beliau

http://history.cultural-china.com/en/174History2028.html

The Records of Three Kingdoms (San Guo Zhi, 三国志), setting the Wei Kingdom of the Cao family as the legitimacy, is the official and authoritative historical text on the period of Three Kingdoms covering from 189 to 280, that was written by Chen Shou (陈寿) in the 3rd century. The work collects the smaller histories of the rival states Cao Wei (曹魏), Shu Han (蜀汉) and Eastern Wu (东吴) of the Three Kingdoms into a single text and provided the basis for the later more popular historical novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms in the 14th century.

Of the official historical records in a series of biographies in ancient China, the Records of Three Kingdoms by Chen Shou, Historical Records, History of the Former Han Dynasty and History of the Latter Han Dynasty are called the "First Four Books of History".

Together with the Records of the Grand Historian, Book of Han and Book of Later Han, the book is part of the early four historiographies of the Twenty-Four Histories canon. It contains 65 volumes and about 360,000 words which are broken into three books. The Book of Wei contains 30 volumes, the Book of Shu contains 15 volumes while the Book of Wu contains 20 volumes. Each volume is organised in the form of one or more biographies. The amount of space a biography takes up is dictated by the importance of the figure.

The original author was Chen Shou, who was born in present day Nanchong, Sichuan, in Kingdom of Shu. After the fall of Shu in 263, he became the Gentleman of Works, and was assigned to create a history of the Three Kingdoms. After the fall of Wu in 280, his work received the acclaim of senior minister Zhang Hua. Earlier to the period, the state of Wei and Wu both had their own histories and it was with these works as basis that he began his work. But since the state of Shu lacked a history of its own, the data was composed by him according to what he could remember, as well as primary documents, such as the works of Zhuge Liang, which he had collected. The book used the date after the fall of Han Dynasty in 220 as standard for the state of Wei. The Book of Wei referred the rulers of Wei as emperors, whilst the rulers of Shu were referred to as lords, and rulers of Wu only by their names or with the title 'the Wu ruler'. This is to uphold the legitimacy of the court of Jin as inheritor of the Mandate of Heaven from Wei. The use of title 'lord' for the rulers of Shu shows in part his sympathy towards his native land.

The romantic and historical traditions for the period of Three Kingdoms have been so confused in the centuries that the Records of Three Kingdoms is often regarded as an invaluable resource. Its information, although full of errors itself, is nevertheless much more accurate than the embellishments of later writers. Many of the political, economic and military figures from the period of Three Kingdoms are included in the work as well as those who contributed to the fields of culture, arts and science. In its nature the work is indeed a chronicle, much like those of early Medieval Europe written much later. The text is bland and little more than a collection of historical facts. A typical extract:

In 219, the Former Lord became King of Hanzhong, and made Guan Yu General of the Vanguard. In the same year, Guan Yu attacked Cao Ren at Fan with his followers. Lord Cao sent Yu Jin to aid Cao Ren. In the autumn, great rains caused the Han River to flood, Yu Jin and the seven armies were lost.

From this we can establish reasonably accurately the flow of events and how history unfolded but almost nothing about society or elements of institutions or policies.

The amount of creative imagination used in ancient Chinese historical narratives - of 'fictionalising', is impossible to estimate precisely; but it is obviously considerable. The great historian Sima Qian employed this device greatly and it can be assumed that Chen Shou also did this in his text. It is highly unlikely that various remarks which leaders or soldiers are supposed to have made in the heat of battle could have been taken down stenographically and thus many of them may be false.

The book is also important to the research of Japan's history (where it is known as Sangokushi), for its volume on the Wa people is the first historical document to make explicit mention of Japan. It describes the ancient country of Yamataikoku and its queen, Himiko.

Chen Shou (233–297), born in Nanchong, Sichuan, a historical account of the Three Kingdoms period of China, favored his state over Eastern Wu in the work, but this preference was subordinate to the Jin Dynasty viewpoint, which saw Cao Wei as the legitimate successor of the Han. He referred to the Cao Wei emperors as emperors, the Shu Han emperors as lords, and the Eastern Wu emperors by name or as "rulers", and never referred to the Wu wives as empresses, instead referring to them as ladies.

Chen Shou was once an officer from the Shu Han of Three Kingdoms. His (supposed) father, Chen Shi (as there is no account of his father's name), was also an officer of Shu, and once had his beard shaved off as a penalty by order of Zhuge Liang after a campaign that failed due to a shortsighted strategy of his commander, Ma Su. In 274, he collected the writings of Zhuge Liang. After the fall of the Shu in 263, he served as an officer under the Jin Dynasty, under which he later wrote the Records of Three Kingdoms.

bukunya

he Records of Three Kingdoms (San Guo Zhi, 三国志), setting the Wei Kingdom of the Cao family as the legitimacy, is the official and authoritative historical text on the period of Three Kingdoms covering from 189 to 280, that was written by Chen Shou (陈寿) in the 3rd century. The work collects the smaller histories of the rival states Cao Wei (曹魏), Shu Han (蜀汉) and Eastern Wu (东吴) of the Three Kingdoms into a single text and provided the basis for the later more popular historical novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms in the 14th century.

Of the official historical records in a series of biographies in ancient China, the Records of Three Kingdoms by Chen Shou, Historical Records, History of the Former Han Dynasty and History of the Latter Han Dynasty are called the "First Four Books of History".

Together with the Records of the Grand Historian, Book of Han and Book of Later Han, the book is part of the early four historiographies of the Twenty-Four Histories canon. It contains 65 volumes and about 360,000 words which are broken into three books. The Book of Wei contains 30 volumes, the Book of Shu contains 15 volumes while the Book of Wu contains 20 volumes. Each volume is organised in the form of one or more biographies. The amount of space a biography takes up is dictated by the importance of the figure.

The original author was Chen Shou, who was born in present day Nanchong, Sichuan, in Kingdom of Shu. After the fall of Shu in 263, he became the Gentleman of Works, and was assigned to create a history of the Three Kingdoms. After the fall of Wu in 280, his work received the acclaim of senior minister Zhang Hua. Earlier to the period, the state of Wei and Wu both had their own histories and it was with these works as basis that he began his work. But since the state of Shu lacked a history of its own, the data was composed by him according to what he could remember, as well as primary documents, such as the works of Zhuge Liang, which he had collected. The book used the date after the fall of Han Dynasty in 220 as standard for the state of Wei. The Book of Wei referred the rulers of Wei as emperors, whilst the rulers of Shu were referred to as lords, and rulers of Wu only by their names or with the title 'the Wu ruler'. This is to uphold the legitimacy of the court of Jin as inheritor of the Mandate of Heaven from Wei. The use of title 'lord' for the rulers of Shu shows in part his sympathy towards his native land.

The romantic and historical traditions for the period of Three Kingdoms have been so confused in the centuries that the Records of Three Kingdoms is often regarded as an invaluable resource. Its information, although full of errors itself, is nevertheless much more accurate than the embellishments of later writers. Many of the political, economic and military figures from the period of Three Kingdoms are included in the work as well as those who contributed to the fields of culture, arts and science. In its nature the work is indeed a chronicle, much like those of early Medieval Europe written much later. The text is bland and little more than a collection of historical facts. A typical extract:

In 219, the Former Lord became King of Hanzhong, and made Guan Yu General of the Vanguard. In the same year, Guan Yu attacked Cao Ren at Fan with his followers. Lord Cao sent Yu Jin to aid Cao Ren. In the autumn, great rains caused the Han River to flood, Yu Jin and the seven armies were lost.

From this we can establish reasonably accurately the flow of events and how history unfolded but almost nothing about society or elements of institutions or policies.

The amount of creative imagination used in ancient Chinese historical narratives - of 'fictionalising', is impossible to estimate precisely; but it is obviously considerable. The great historian Sima Qian employed this device greatly and it can be assumed that Chen Shou also did this in his text. It is highly unlikely that various remarks which leaders or soldiers are supposed to have made in the heat of battle could have been taken down stenographically and thus many of them may be false.

The book is also important to the research of Japan's history (where it is known as Sangokushi), for its volume on the Wa people is the first historical document to make explicit mention of Japan. It describes the ancient country of Yamataikoku and its queen, Himiko.

Chen Shou (233–297), born in Nanchong, Sichuan, a historical account of the Three Kingdoms period of China, favored his state over Eastern Wu in the work, but this preference was subordinate to the Jin Dynasty viewpoint, which saw Cao Wei as the legitimate successor of the Han. He referred to the Cao Wei emperors as emperors, the Shu Han emperors as lords, and the Eastern Wu emperors by name or as "rulers", and never referred to the Wu wives as empresses, instead referring to them as ladies.

Chen Shou was once an officer from the Shu Han of Three Kingdoms. His (supposed) father, Chen Shi (as there is no account of his father's name), was also an officer of Shu, and once had his beard shaved off as a penalty by order of Zhuge Liang after a campaign that failed due to a shortsighted strategy of his commander, Ma Su. In 274, he collected the writings of Zhuge Liang. After the fall of the Shu in 263, he served as an officer under the Jin Dynasty, under which he later wrote the Records of Three Kingdoms.

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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #40 on: 08 October 2009, 02:04:50 PM »
hm.. begini bro.. yang saya tanyakan itu bukti sejarah yang menyatakan karya Chen Shou yang benar.

Sedangkan link yang Anda kasih lebih tepat dikatakan sinopsis dan profile Chen Shou dan buku Records of Three Kingdom.

Intinya : Anda menggunakan buku karangan Chen Shou untuk menunjukkan karya Chen Shou asli. Itu kurang ilmiah..

Sama hal nya seperti ini, saya membuat suatu buku judulnya "XYZ", di dalam buku tersebut saya tulis : Lumba-lumba itu sebenarnya merupakan ikan bukan mamalia.
Lalu ada yang menanyakan, bagaimana saya bisa membuktikan lumba2 itu ikan. Saya menjawab. Ada koq literaturnya di buku "XYZ"

Apakah literatur XYZ yang notabene saya buat sendiri itu bisa diterima sebagai rujukan ilmiah untuk menjelaskan karya saya sendiri ?

Jika menurut bro Pur bisa, berarti kita sudahi saja diskusi ini, karena adanya perbedaan pola pikir :)
 
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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #41 on: 08 October 2009, 02:18:51 PM »
^
^
^
Itu udah g jawab
The Ten-Thousand-Volume Tower was the place where Chen Shou read books in his youth. Located in the Xishan Scenic Spot in Nanchong of Sichuan Province, the tower took its first appearance in Jianxing period (222-237) during the time of the Three Kingdoms.=> tempat ini bukti dokumen dokumen yang berasal dari dinasti han sampai tiga kerajaan. Dia itu pengumpul data validnya bro, bukti ontentik mau nya kayak apa ?, Dokumen -dokumen ada di tiongkok ngak ada disini, kalo u mau telusuri benar ngaknya chen sou menulis berdasarkan fakta yang ada, yah satu satunya jalan ke tempat ini

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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #42 on: 08 October 2009, 02:22:58 PM »
source yang berisi the ten-thousand-volume tower blablabal itu linknya ada bro..
can share it for us ?

terus bro mengatakan LGZ mencontek karya CZ beberapa persen, lalu CZ itu pengumpul data yang valid ?
ada bukti tertulisnya bro ? sori ya agak rewel.. namun untuk pembuktian suatu opini memang harus menggunakan literatur ilmiah seh.

« Last Edit: 08 October 2009, 02:25:02 PM by Forte »
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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #43 on: 13 October 2009, 12:21:09 PM »
source yang berisi the ten-thousand-volume tower blablabal itu linknya ada bro..
can share it for us ?

terus bro mengatakan LGZ mencontek karya CZ beberapa persen, lalu CZ itu pengumpul data yang valid ?
ada bukti tertulisnya bro ? sori ya agak rewel.. namun untuk pembuktian suatu opini memang harus menggunakan literatur ilmiah seh.



Sorry kemarin G ngak bisa Masuk Forum Eror :((.
Baru bisa masuk sekarang .

jawabnya ada pak. Source sejarah membuktikan bahwa Chen Shou adalah orang yang mengumpulkan catatan sejarah kerajaan tiga negara. bukan saja dari wiki lokh, kalo bukti sejarahnya ada di China pak, ngak ada di sini, the ten-thousand-volume tower itu disono tuh dibilang museum pak, itu di situ semua resource data data kisah tiga negara masih tersimpan rapih yang di tulis chen shou disana.

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Re: The Legend of Zhuge Liang
« Reply #44 on: 13 October 2009, 12:37:49 PM »
begini lho bro.. walau mengumpulkan bukti sejarah, apakah langsung berarti tulisan CZ bisa dikatakan mewakili sejarah secara valid ?

Ilustrasinya seperti ini, saya memiliki perpustakaan komplet, lalu saya menulis buku XYZ yang menyatakan paus itu adalah ikan. Apakah itu bisa dikatakan valid ? Walau saya mengumpulkan bukti berupa perpustakaan yang komplet, tapi tetap saja tulisan saya TETAP HARUS DIVALIDASI oleh bagian yang berwenang, misal melalui penelitian / adanya lembaga yang berwenang yang menyatakan valid.

Sekarang apakah adakah lembaga ilmiah yang menyatakan karya CZ adalah valid ? Kalau tidak, mohon maaf itu masih sebatas opini saja. Ada baiknya jujur dengan menulis, menurut pendapat saya : .................. Jadi mohon sekali lagi diperhatikan antara perbedaan ilmiah dan opiini.

Terus saya mohon lebih ilmiah dalam berdiskusi. Jangan menjawab source nya ada di china, jadi harus ke sana.. itu sangat2 tidak ilmiah. Sedangkan bro sendiri yang menjawab demikian juga ada di sini, dan apakah ada bukti bro pernah melihat langsung ten thousand volume tower tersebut ? jika tidak, tidak ada suatu bukti yang bisa diperoleh yang membuktikan kebenaran ucapan bro. Makanya itu perlu rujukan2 dari internet / publikasi orang lain yang tentunya juga valid.

Lalu mengenai LGZ mencontek karya CZ adakah bukti ilmiahnya ? atau hanya berupa opini pribadi?
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