Pelimpahan jasa, dari manakah rujukannya?

[Indra]

both, bukan gitu?

baiklah, anggaplah buddhaghosa keliru dalam hal ini, tapi bagaimana dengan karya lainnya? dan silahkan ajukan karya si dukun untuk kita evaluasi kualitasnya

[Indra]

yah terlepas dari yg diatas, ada kenalan yg bisa lihat "mahluk" demikian, dan mereka bisa makan makanan yg diberikan pada mereka, tanpa perantara. demikianlah yg ku dengar dari yg bisa lihat

ini menarik, menurut pengakuan dukun itu apakah setelah si "makhluk" memakan makanan yg diberikan, lantas makanan itu mendadak "ting" lenyap atau berkurang?

[Sostradanie]

ini menarik, menurut pengakuan dukun itu apakah setelah si "makhluk" memakan makanan yg diberikan, lantas makanan itu mendadak "ting" lenyap atau berkurang?

Katanya cuma dimakan dari hawa/udara-nya. Kira-kira begitulah. Terus makanan itu jadi berbeda rasa-nya. Yang disajikan untuk si makhluk sudah lebih hambar dengan yang tidak disajikan. Kalau soal rasa, saya pernah coba.Memang agak beda rasa-nya. Entah kebetulan atau memang betul terjadi.

[Sumedho]

soal karya lainnya, yah mana kutahu. selama masih belum terlihat ada pertentangan, tentu masih meyakinkan. bukan begitu?



kita bukan adu antara hebatan mana antara buddhagosa vs dukun loh. masa karena bisa melihat peta makan lalu diadu karya tulis?

topik ini membahas tentang sumber rujukan pelimpahan jasa itu sendiri. Ada yg punya dari sutta? Susahnya AN nih yg masih diluar jangkauan.

[ryu]

dapet juga suttanya tapi tolong terjemaahin

10. Nandamàtàsuttaü Ý The female lay disciple Nanda

005.10. I heard thus. At one time venerable Sàriputta and venerable Mahàmoggallàna were touring the southern hilly region with a large Community of bhikkhus. At that time the female lay disciple Velukantaki Nanda having got up in the last watch of the night was reciting loudly the Parayana Vagga.

At that time Vessavana the great king of gods heard the female lay disciple Nanda reciting the Parayana Vagga loudly and waited till it finished.

The female lay disciple Nanda finished reciting the Parayana Vagga and became silent. Knowing that the female lay disciple Nanda had finished reciting, applauded her saying ßGood sister!û Then she asked. ßWho is this good one?û

ßSister I am Vessavana the great king of godsû

ßGood one, you have thievishly listened to my recitationû

ßGood! Sister, then this will be another theft. Tomorrow the Community of bhikkhus headed by Sàriputta and Moggallàna without taking the morning meal are coming to Velukandaka, offering food to that Community of bhikkhus, make it my offering. May that also be a theft of mine.û

The female lay disciple Nanda at the end of that night prepared nourishing eatables and drinks in her home.

Then the Community of bhikkhus headed by Sàriputta and Moggallàna without having the morning meal entered Velukandaka. The female lay disciple Nanda addressed a certain man and said: Good one, go to the monastery and tell the Community of bhikkhus that the meal is ready at the female lay disciple Nanda's home.û

He agreed and going to the monastery informed the Community of bhikkhus: Venerable sirs, the meal is ready at the female lay disciple Nanda's home. The Community of bhikkhus headed by Sàriputta and Moggallàna putting on robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes approached the house of the female lay disciple Nanda and sat on the prepared seats.

Then the female lay disciple Nanda with her own hands offered nourishing eatables and drinks to the Community of bhikkhus headed by Sàriputta and Moggallàna and satisfied them.

Then knowing venerable Sàriputta had finished taking the meal and had put aside the bowl, the female lay disciple Nanda sat on a side and venerable Sàriputta said: ßNandamata, who informed you about the arrival of the Community of bhikkhus?û

ßHere, venerable sir, I got up in the last watch of the night and reciting loudly the Parayana Vagga became silent.

Then Vessavana the great king of gods knowing that I had finished reciting the Parayana Vagga applauded me, saying ßGood! Sister!û Then I asked. ßWho is this good one?û

and he said: ßSister I am Vessavana the great king of godsû

ßGood one, you have thievishly listened to my recitationû

ßGood! Sister, then this will be another theft. Tomorrow the Community of bhikkhus headed by Sàriputta and Moggallàna without taking the morning meal are coming to Velukandaka, offering food to that Community of bhikkhus, make it my offering. May that also be a theft of mine.û

ßVenerable sir, whatever merit be the outcome of this gift may it be for the pleasantness of Vessavana the great king of gods.û

ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, that you have spoken face to face with such a powerful majestic son of gods!û

ßVenerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, I had a single loved son Nanda, for some reason or other the king pulled him away, oppressed him and killed him. Venerable sir, when my child was pulled away, oppressed, and killed, I do not recall of the least change in my mind".

ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind.û

ßVenerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, my husband died and was born with a certain clan of demons. Now he appears to me as he was in his last birth. On account of that, I do not recall of the least change in my mind".

ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind.û

ßVenerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, from the day I was brought by my husband as a child, I do not recall of an instance of going beyond his mental state, I have never searched outside bodily pleasures". .

ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind.û

ßVenerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, from the day I confessed to be a female lay disciple I do not recall of trespessing the least of the precepts. .

ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind.û

ßVenerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, when I desire, secluding my mind from sensual desires and demeritorious things, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion I abide in the first higher state of mind. Overcoming thoughts and discursive thoughts, the mind in one point, internally appeased with joy and pleasantness born of concentration I abide in the second higher state of mind. With equanimity to joy and disenchantment, I experience pleasantness and mindful awareness with the body and attain to the third higher state of mind, to this the noble ones say, mindfully abiding in pleasantness with equanimity. Dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, cleaning the mind so that it is without unpleasantness and pleasàntness I attain to the fourth higher state of mindû

ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind.û

ßVenerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, I do not see a single of these bonds binding to the sensual world in me, according to the way declared by The Blessed One.".

ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind.û

Then venerable Sàriputta advising, inciting and making the heart light of the female lay disciple Nanda with a talk got up and went away.

[ryu]

9. Dànamahapphalasuttaü Ý The highest results from giving gifts

005.09. At one time The Blessed One was living on the bank of the Gaggara pond in Campa. Then many disciples of Campa approached venerable Sàriputta, worshipped, sat on a side and said: Venerable sir, it is long since that we heard the Teaching from The Blessed One.

Good! If we could hear the Teaching from The Blessed One. Then friends, come on the full moon day, you will undoubtedly hear the Teaching from the Blesed One. Those lay disciples agreed got up from their seats, worshipped, venerable Sàriputta, circumambulated and went away.

On the full moon day, those lay disciples approached venerable Sàriputta worshipped and kept standing Then venerable Sàriputta approached The Blessed One with those lay disciples, worshipped sat on a side and said to The Blessed One:

Venerable sir, is there a state in which, to a certain one, there isn't the highest benefits and results giving a certain gift and to another there is the highest benefits and results giving the same gift?

Sàriputta, there is that state in which, to a certain one, there isn't the highest benefits and results giving a certain gift and to another there is the highest benefits and results giving the same gift. Venerable sir, what is the reason and cause for a certain one, there isn't the highest benefits and results giving a certain gift and to another there is the highest benefits and results giving the same gift?

Here, Sàriputta, a certain one gives gifts of eatables, drinks, clothes, carriages, flowers scents, ointments, beds dwellings and lights to recluses or Brahmins with desires, with a bound mind, with desires of accumulating, thinking later I will partake these. Sàriputta, do you know that a certain one gives gifts like these?

Yes, venerable sir.

There, Sàriputta, a certain one gives gifts with desires, with a bound mind, with desires of accumulating, thinking I will later partake these, they after death are born in the company of the four guardian gods. Finishing up all the results, power, that fame and authority of those actions, they come back here.

There, Sàriputta, a certain one does not give gifts with desires, with a bound mind, with desires of accumulating, thinking I will later partake these. They give gifts thinking it is good ... re ... Some do not give gifts thinking it is good to give gifts. They give gifts thinking my father, grandfather gave gifts, it is not good to disturb this order and they give gifts ... re ... Some do not give gifts thinking my father, grandfather gave gifts, it is not good to disturb this order and they give giftsñhinking we cook, these do not cook, we should give to those who do not cook. It is not suitable that those who cook should not give to those who do not cook ... re ... Some do not give gifts thinking we cook, these do not cook, we should give to those who do not cook. It is not suitable that those who cook should not give to those who do not cook They give thinking, great sacrifices were given to ancient sages such as Attaka Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa and Bhagu. I will arrange the sacrifice to them ... re ... Some do not give thinking great sacrifices were given to ancient sages such as Attaka Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa and Bhagu. thinking I will arrange the sacrifice to them. Yet others give gifts, thinking when I give these gifts, my mind becomes pleasant, when the self is pleased pleasure arises and gives gifts, ... re ... Some do not think when I give these gifts my mind becomes pleasant, when the self is pleased pleasure arises. Yet some give gifts to adorn and decorate the mind. He gives those gifts of eatables, drinks, clothes, carriages, flowers scents, ointments, beds dwellings and lights to recluses or Brahmins. Sàriputta, do you know that such gifts are given?û

ßYes, venerable sir".

There, Sàriputta, a certain one does not give gifts with desires, with a bound mind, with desires of accumulating, thinking I will later partake these, it is good to give gifts, gifts were given by my father and grandfather and it is not suitable to disturb this order. I cook and these do not cook, it is not suitable that those who cook should not give to those who do not cook, great sacrifices were given to ancient sages such as Attaka Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa and Bhagu. I will arrange the sacrifice to them, nor does he give thinking when I give these gifts my mind becomes pleasant, when the self is pleased pleasure arises. Yet gives gifts to adorn and decorate the mind. He giving those gifts, after death is born in the company of the four guardian gods. Finishing up all the results, power, that fame and authority of those actions, he does not come back here.

That is the reason and cause for a certain one, there isn't the highest benefits and results giving a certain gift and to another there is the highest benefits and results giving the same gift.

[Kelana]

Berikut daftar cuplikan nandamata sutta yang dicurigai adanya pelimpahan jasa.

Pali:
‘‘Sādhu, bhagini, etañceva me hotu ātitheyyaṃ. Sveva sāriputtamoggallānappamukho bhikkhusaṅgho akatapātarāso veḷukaṇḍakaṃ āgamissati, tañca bhikkhusaṅghaṃ parivisitvā mama dakkhiṇaṃ ādiseyyāsi. Etañceva me bhavissati ātitheyya’’nti.

English versi dari Mr. Ryu
Good! Sister, then this will be another theft. Tomorrow the Community of bhikkhus headed by Sàriputta and Moggallàna without taking the morning meal are coming to Velukandaka, offering food to that Community of bhikkhus, make it my offering. May that also be a theft of mine.

Jerman (palikanon.com):
Gut, Schwester. Dies aber möge mein eigenes Gastgeschenk sein: Morgen früh wird eine Schar von Mönchen, mit Sāriputta und Moggallāna an der Spitze, in Velukantaka eintreffen, ohne ihr Morgenmahl eingenommen zu haben. Jene Mönchsschar aber mögest du bewirten und ihr meine Gabe darbringen. Eben dies soll mein Gastgeschenk sein

-------
Pali:
Yadidaṃ , bhante, dāne puññañca puññamahī ca taṃ vessavaṇassa mahārājassa sukhāya hotū’’ti.

English versi dari Mr. Ryu:
Venerable sir, whatever merit be the outcome of this gift may it be for the pleasantness of Vessavana the great king of gods.

Jerman (palikanon.com):
So möge denn, ehrwürdiger Herr (Sāriputta), was da mit dieser Gabe an Verdienst und Verdienstesfülle (ChS: puññamahī ca) erwirkt wird, dem großen König Vessavana zugute kommen

[Indra]

soal karya lainnya, yah mana kutahu. selama masih belum terlihat ada pertentangan, tentu masih meyakinkan. bukan begitu?



kita bukan adu antara hebatan mana antara buddhagosa vs dukun loh. masa karena bisa melihat peta makan lalu diadu karya tulis?

topik ini membahas tentang sumber rujukan pelimpahan jasa itu sendiri. Ada yg punya dari sutta? Susahnya AN nih yg masih diluar jangkauan.

ini memang agak OOT sedikit yg akan kembali back to track setelah diselesaikan, sehubungan dengan buddhaghosa dan dukun yg sama2 "konon". jika ingin menilai opini seseorang tentunya ada baiknya kita mengetahui kredibilitas orang itu bukan? dalam hal misalnya seorang akuntan yg menulis buku tentang teknik membangun jembatan, tentu tulisannya akan diragukan kebenarannya.

[Indra]

Katanya cuma dimakan dari hawa/udara-nya. Kira-kira begitulah. Terus makanan itu jadi berbeda rasa-nya. Yang disajikan untuk si makhluk sudah lebih hambar dengan yang tidak disajikan. Kalau soal rasa, saya pernah coba.Memang agak beda rasa-nya. Entah kebetulan atau memang betul terjadi.

ini mungkin subyektif, saya selalu memakan makanan pasca persembahan, dan babi tetap terasa babi, jeruk tetap terasa jeruk. lagipula kalau dikatakan memakan tentu makanan itu akan berkurang, lain kata jika dihirup aromanya saja

[morpheus]

imo, sebagai manusia, kadang review dari orang yg lebih dekat dengan kita akan lebih dianggap dan masup ketimbang review dari orang yg nun jauh di sana, gak pernah ketemu. ini berlaku untuk sesuatu yg blom pernah kita lihat, raba dan rasa tentunya.

[Sumedho]

thanks to bro ryu and bro kelana:

kalau demikian, sutta itu, Velukantaki Nanda melakukan pelimpahan jasa pada Vessavana, great king of gods.

ada point yg kita tangkap disini,
1. transfer jasa hasil perbuatan baik dilakukan

ßVenerable sir, whatever merit be the outcome of this gift may it be for the pleasantness of Vessavana the great king of gods.û

sedangkan dalam sutta2 lainnya dikatakan tidak bisa transfer.

2.  transfer tersebut diberikan pada raja dewa
dalam janussonin sutta dikatakan itu adalah salah satu alam yg tidak mungkin/bisa menerima.

[Sumedho]

ini memang agak OOT sedikit yg akan kembali back to track setelah diselesaikan, sehubungan dengan buddhaghosa dan dukun yg sama2 "konon". jika ingin menilai opini seseorang tentunya ada baiknya kita mengetahui kredibilitas orang itu bukan? dalam hal misalnya seorang akuntan yg menulis buku tentang teknik membangun jembatan, tentu tulisannya akan diragukan kebenarannya.

still, ini tidak layak dilanjutkan toh...

satu menulis kisah, yg satu dukun. lalu diajark membandingkan karya tulis.

kalau utk melihat alam2 atau magis, yah dukun yg lebih kredibel bukan?

[Indra]

still, ini tidak layak dilanjutkan toh...

satu menulis kisah, yg satu dukun. lalu diajark membandingkan karya tulis.

kalau utk melihat alam2 atau magis, yah dukun yg lebih kredibel bukan?

untuk melihat alam2 magis, dukun gak lebih kredibel daripada gue, mana yg lebih ahli ngibul yg menang

[Indra]

“Buddha Yang Mulia, walaupun pemberian Dhamma begitu mulia dan layak dipuji, mengapa kami tidak mendapatkan limpahan jasa dari kebajikan ini? Mulai saat ini, mohon Sangha melimpahkan jasa kepada kami dari kebajikan membabarkan Dhamma.”

Mendengar permohonan Sakka, Sang Buddha mengadakan rapat Sangha dan berkata:

“Mulai saat ini, para bhikkhu, setelah membabarkan khotbah Dhamma, apakah itu khotbah besar, khotbah biasa atau khotbah yang diberikan kepada mereka yang mengunjungi kalian, atau (setidaknya) khotbah yang diberikan sebagai penghargaan atas persembahan makanan, limpahkanlah jasa itu, yang kalian peroleh dari khotbah Dhamma itu, kepada semua makhluk.” (Komentar Dhammapada)

[pannadevi]

koq beda yah


    But when this offering is given, well-placed in the Sangha,
    it works for their long-term benefit
    and they profit immediately.

    In this way
       the proper duty to relatives has been shown,
       great honor has been done to the dead,
       and monks have been given strength:

       The merit you've acquired
          isn't small.


well-placed itu artinya dilakukan dengan baik didalam sangha. maksudnya sangha yg melakukannya, bukan sangha yg diberikan. bukan begitu? terutama melihat konteks dari awal

yg kisah2 itu, bukankah itu post canon? which is story2 belakangan?

saya sebenarnya ingin menampilkan quote yg jadi dasar postingan ini, yaitu postingannya bro kelana, tapi ternyata sekarang prog nya udah dibuat beda jadi udah ga bisa quote lagi klo udah panjang/lama postingan tsb diposting.

saya menyimak thread ini karena sangat terbantu, dimana saya yakin bahwa persembahan pelimpahan jasa dapat mencapai semua alam, sayang saya belum menemukan referensinya,  bro Ryu menampilkan banyak referensi dengan adanya thread ini saya jadi dapat referensinya. thanks ya bro Ryu, nice posts.

jika dianggap beda oleh Tuhan, mungkin karena menerjemahkannya mereka menggunakan pola pikir mereka, bukan pola pikir pali, sedang di pali saṅghamhi (through/by/with sangha), tapi kok menjadi well-placed ya. padahal ini jelas sekali persembahan melalui sangha/dengan sangha/oleh sangha. jadi dalam pengertian ini adalah persembahan pelimpahan jasa ini lewat sangha, mereka yang makan (maksudnya anggota sangha yg makan, bukan di mediang yg meninggal), dan seketika itu juga mediang yg meninggal segera dapat menikmati makanan tsb. di alam mereka segera tersaji makanan yang enak2.

disini saya sertakan :

Versi Pali
Suttapiṭaka, Khuddakanikāya, Khuddakapāṭhapāḷi, 7. Tirokuṭṭasuttaṃ
11. Ayañca kho dakkhiṇā dinnā, saṅghamhi suppatiṭṭhitā;
      Dīgharattaṃ hitāyassa, ṭhānaso upakappatī.

12. So ñātidhammo ca ayaṃ nidassito,
      Petāna pūjā ca katā uḷārā;
      Balañca bhikkhūnamanuppadinnaṃ,
      Tumhehi puññaṃ pasutaṃ anappakaṃ.

English Version
11.   But that gift that has been given, and well placed in the Sangha,
        Is of benefit to them for a long time, immediately it is of benefit.
12. This then is the definition of a relative's duties -
      (and by this) great honour has been done to the departed,
      Strength has also been given to the monks,
      And no little merit has been produced by you!

Versi terjemahan dari saya berdasarkan Pali-English Dictionary, by : TW.Rhys Davids
11.   Ayañca (and just this here) kho (indeed, really, surely) dakkhiṇā (as a gift/ a donation given to a “holy” person with reference to unhappy beings in the Peta existence (“Manes”), intended to induce the alleviation of their sufferings) dinnā (given, granted, presented, giving alms), saṅghamhi (through/by/with sangha) suppatiṭṭhitā (firmly established);
Dīgharattaṃ (a long time) hitāyassa (useful of income, suitable of income, benefit of income), ṭhānaso (immediately, spontaneously, impromptu) upakappatī (to be benefial to, to serve, to accrue).

12.   So (he, that one) ñātidhammo (the duties of realtives) ca (and, then) ayaṃ (just this here) nidassito (pointed out, defined as, termed),
Petāna (dead, departed, ghost) pūjā (veneration, homage, devotional offering) ca (and, then) katā (done, made, finished, fulfilled) uḷārā (lofty, noble, eminent);
Balañca (and/then, strength, power, force) bhikkhūnamanuppadinnaṃ (bhikkhūnam: bhikkhus, anuppadinnaṃ: of the following)
Tumhehi (through/by/with you) puññaṃ (merit, righteousness) pasutaṃ (engaged in, attached to, doing) anappakaṃ (much, many, not trifling).

dari terjemahan saya diatas yang dibuat kata demi kata disusun menjadi kalimat sbb :

English :
11.  Indeed then this here giving alms through saṅgha firmly established.
       Spontaneously benefit to serve them a long time.
12.  Then this here the duties of relatives pointed out him (that one),
       And then devotional offering the dead lofty eminent,
       And following bhikkhus power,
       Through you engaged much merits.

Terjemahan bahasa Indonesia :
11.   Kini persembahan dana melalui sangha telah kokoh
        Seketika menguntungkan mereka untuk waktu yg lama
        (mereka menikmati persembahan ini utk waktu yg lama)
12.   Kini tugas sanak saudara mengingat mereka
        Mempersembahkan persembahan untuk mereka dilakukan secara mulia
        Disertai kekuatan para bhikkhu
        Melalui anda kebajikan tak terhingga

saya bukan seorang penerjemah Pali, saya masih belajar dan ini terjemahan masih jauh dari sempurna, tapi dengan panduan buku Dictionary Pali PTS Rhys Davids ini semoga tidak terlalu menyimpang, setidaknya ini terjemahan berdasarkan dari kamus Pali PTS. apabila ada kesalahan silahkan memberi masukan untuk saya.

mettacittena,