Apakah devadatta vegetarian??

[Juice_alpukat]

Iya sih,zaman dulu tdk ada industri hewan tp skrng ada industri pnjagalan binatang, bgaimana menurut bro?

[Juice_alpukat]

Hmm,owkeh bhas devadatta vgetarian atau tidak, hanyalah spekulasi.Sulit diketahui. Tapi menurut bro gandalf,salah seorang guru tibet berkata dia tidak vegetarian.
gara2 lima peraturan devadatta, vegetarian pun jadi seperti ajaran devadatta, shngga orang yg vegetarian kadang dikaitkan dngan devadatta , heh cpeh gara2 perbuatan beliau.
Selanjutnya,
Kalau menurut bro, apakah vegetarian adalah salah st praktek cintakasih?
apakah makan daging juga mrupakan salah st praktek cinta kasih? Apakah vegetarian adlh salah st wujud mralitas trhdp hewan2?

[ryu]

Bukankah sejak dulu jainisme sudah ada sebelum devadatta? Mereka kan ada paham vegetarian juga dan ahimsa.

[Nevada]

darimana tahu sang Buddha membabarkan vegetarian setelah hampir ajal?
Sutra percakapan Mahaksyapa itu dari Nirvana sutra,bukan Mahaparinirvana.
Aq tidak mengajak para bhku vegetarian atau tidak,tapi mengajak upasaka dan upasika,bila upasaka sika vegetarian otomatis Bhikkhunya vegetarian, kalau upasakasika tidak vegetarian,otomatis bhikkhunya tetap dikasih daging. Bhikkhu tak punya pilihan.

Mau bukti Sutra-nya?

Kalau Anda bisa memahami teks dalam Bahasa Inggris, coba baca ini...


"O Kasyapa! What is "complying well and discussing"? For example, a person comes and
puts a question to the Buddha-World-Honoured One: "How can I be a great danapati [giver],
not throwing my money away?" The Buddha says: "Should there be any sramana, Brahmin,
or any person who seeks to posess [but] little and is fully contented and will not accept or store
any impure things, give such a person a maid or servant. To one who practises pure actions,
give him the lust of a female, and to one who does not drink [alcohol] or eat meat, give drink
and meat; to one who does not take meals after noon, give him a meal after noon; to one who
does not use flowers and incense, give flowers and incense. Such donations give rise to rumour
and the fame will fill the world. Not a penny is spent. This is "complying well and discussing."

Then Bodhisattva Kasyapa said to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! To one who
eats flesh, we should not give flesh. Why not? I see a great virtue arising out of abstention from
eating flesh." The Buddha praised Kasyapa and said: "Well said, well said! You now come to know my mind well. A Bodhisattva who protects Dharma should be thus. O good man! From now on, I do not permit my sravaka disciples to eat meat. When receiving from a danapati a pristine dana [gift] of faith, think that one is eating the flesh of one’s own son." Bodhisattva Kasyapa said further to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! Why is it that the Tathagata does not allow us to eat meat?" "O good man! “One who eats meat kills the seed of great compassion."

Kasyapa said again: "Why did you first allow the bhiksus to eat three kinds of pure
meat?" "O Kasyapa! These three kinds of pure meat were so instituted following the need of
the occasion." Bodhisattva Kasyapa said again to the Buddha: "O World-Honoured One! In what circumstances do you not allow the ten impurities or the nine kinds of what is pure?" The Buddha said to Kasyapa: "This also is permitted by gradual steps following the need of the occasion. This is what applies in the actual segregation from eating meat." Bodhisattva
Kasyapa said further to the Buddha: "Why is it that the flesh of fish is praised and called
beautiful?" "O good man! I do not say that the flesh of fish is a beautiful food. I say that
sugar can, non-glutinous rice, rock candy, black rock candy, all kinds of wheat, honey, milk,
cream, and oil are beautiful foods. Various kinds of clothing material can be stocked, but what
can be stocked is those whose colour has faded. How could one greedily stick to [crave after]
the flesh of fish?" Kasyapa said again to the Buddha: "If the Tathagata means to prohibit the
eating of meat, such things as the five kinds of flavours as milk, cream, fresh butter, clarified
butter, and sarpirmanda, all kinds of clothing, silk cloth, horse-shoe shell, hide and leather,
bowls of gold and silver should not be received." "O good man! Do not muddle things up with
what the Nirgranthas [Jains] say. Each of the prohibitions which the Tathagata lays down has
a different meaning. By this, three pure meats are permitted standing on different grounds and
the ten kinds of meat are prohibited by different standpoints. By different standpoints, all are
prohibited, until the time of one’s death. O Kasyapa! “I, from now on, tell my disciples to
refrain from eating any kind of meat”. O Kasyapa! When one eats meat, this gives out the
smell of meat while one is walking, standing, sitting or reclining. People smell this and become
fearful. This is as when one comes near a lion. One sees and smells the lion, and fear arises. O
good man! When one eats garlic, the dirty smell is unbearable. Other people notice it. They
smell the bad smell. They leave that person and go away. Even from far off, people hate to
see such a person. They will not come near him. It is the same with one who eats meat. It is
a similar situation with all people who, on smelling the meat, become afraid and entertain the
thought of death. All living things in the water, on land and in the sky desert such a person and run away. They say that this person is their enemy. Hence the Bodhisattva does not eat
meat. In order to save beings, he shows [pretends] that he eats meat. Though he [seems to] eat
meat, in actual fact he does not. O good man! Such a Bodhisattva does not even take pure
food. How could he eat meat? One hundred years after my death, all the holy sages of the
four fruitions [the four stages leading to "arhatship"] will enter Nirvana. The age of Wonderful
Dharma will be over, and there will appear the age of Counterfeit Dharma, when the bhiksu will
keep the precepts [only] as a matter of form, will recite [only] a little of the sutras, will greedily
take food and drink and [excessively] nourish his body. What he wears on his body will be ugly
and coarse. He will look wearied and show no dignity. He will feed [farm] cows and sheep and
carry fuel and grass. His beard, nails and hair will be long. He will don the kasaya [priestly
robe] but look like a hunter. He will narrow his eyes, walk slowly and look like a cat who is
after a rat. He will always mutter: "I have attained arhatship". He will suffer from all kinds of
diseases, lie and sleep on dung. Outwardly he will look wise, but inside he will be greedy and
jealous. He practises mute like a Brahmin. Truth to tell, he is no shramana [monk], but only
tries to appear as such. He is burning with perverted views, ever slandering Wonderful Dharma.
One such as this transgresses against the precepts, right action and deportment instituted by
the Tathagata. He talks about the fruit of emancipation, but his actions depart from what is
pure and he violates Dharma, which is profound and hidden. Each such person, following his
own interpretation, will speak contrary to what the sutras and vinaya rules state, saying: "The
Tathagata allows all of us meat". They will talk thus and say that the Buddha has so spoken.
They will dispute and say that they are shramanas and successors to the Buddha’s teaching.
O good man! At that time, again, there will be shramanas who store cereals, receive fish and
meat, prepare meals themselves, and keep oil pots. They will be around bejewelled parasols,
leather footgear, kings, ministers and rich people. They will indulge in astrological practices
and medical treatments; they will keep servants, gold, silver, beryl, musaragalva, agate, crystal,
coral, amber, jade, horse-shoe shell, and many kinds of melons [seeds]. They will learn all arts,
painting, plastering, book-making, and all kinds of science, all kinds of seed- sowing and planting
of roots, placing of curses, charming, preparation of medicines, theatrical art, music, adorning of
their body with fragrances and flowers, gambling, "go" game, and various kinds of handiwork.
If any bhiksu rejects such evils, one can say that he is truly my disciple." Then Kasyapa said
further to the Buddha: "OWorld-Honoured One! The bhiksus, bhiksunis, upasakas and upasikas
may have to live depending on people. At the time of the alms-round, one may be given food
containing meat. How can one take it and yet be pure?" The Buddha said: "Use water, wash
away the meat, and then eat it [the rest of the food]. The utensil may be defiled by meat. But if
no taste of meat remains, this may be used. There will be no harm done. If one sees that there
is a lot of meat, one should not accept such a meal. One must never eat the meat itself. One
who eats it infringes the rule. I now set this rule of segregating one’s self from eating meat. If
we go into detail, there will be no end of explanations. It is now time that I enter Nirvana. So I must dispense with explanations. This is "answering well what is enquired about."


Kalau Anda paham dengan petikan Sutra di atas, Anda bisa melihat bahwa Sang Buddha baru saja menjelaskan kalau Beliau menentang bhiksu (dalam Bahasa Pali: bhikkhu) yang memakan 3 daging suci pada saat detik-detik menjelang memasuki Parinirvana. Bukankah ini yang saya katakan janggal dan sepertinya tumpang-tindih dengan kronologis di Sutra lain?

Intermezzo: "Tidak ada Sutra yang berjudul Nirvana Sutra. Mungkin Anda salah baca atau salah ingat. Sutra-sutra Mahayana yang dikategorikan di dalam Kitab Agama semuanya memiliki judul yang pendek. Sedangkan Sutra-sutra yang panjang dan terdiri dari beberapa bab, biasa isinya mengandung puja-pujaan kepada Buddha dan Bodhisattva; serta judulnya juga cukup panjang."

Tapi Sang Buddha sendiri tidak mewajibkan kepada upasaka-upasika untuk bervegetarian. Bahkan pancasila Buddhis pun bukan harga mati, hanya sebagai tuntunan bagi para perumah-tangga saja. Kalau Anda memang senang bervegetarian, silakan lanjutkan saja. Saya pun tidak mengajak Anda untuk menjadi makhluk omnivora.

[Nevada]

Iya sih,zaman dulu tdk ada industri hewan tp skrng ada industri pnjagalan binatang, bgaimana menurut bro?

Di zaman dahulu manusia sudah bisa berternak. Makanya yang penting bagi bhikkhu adalah makan apa adanya. Akan sangat merepotkan jika bhikkhu sampai harus memilih-milih makanan. Lagipula mengambil gaya hidup bervegetarian pun sepertinya terperangkap dalam jaring "dosa mula citta", seperti yang disebutkan Bro Ryu.

Kita tidak bisa memaksakan semua perumah-tangga menjadi vegetarian. Semua orang punya kehendak masing-masing. Sama seperti kita tidak bisa memaksakan semua orang untuk harus suka alpukat.

[Indra]

apakah makan daging adalah praktik cinta kasih sepertinya harus dilihat dari kondisi makhluk yg dagingnya dimakan. hidup atau mati

[andry]

tambahan:
mungkin yg perlu di ingat adalah, dimana ada 3 kriteria:
mendengar (bhw daging tsb di khususkan untuk saia)
melihat (melihat hiwan tsb di bacok untuk saia)
mencurigai (mencurigai bahwa daging ini adalah berasal dari haiwan untuk saia)
IMO, aturan tsb untuk bikkhu...

[Nevada]

Hmm,owkeh bhas devadatta vgetarian atau tidak, hanyalah spekulasi.Sulit diketahui. Tapi menurut bro gandalf,salah seorang guru tibet berkata dia tidak vegetarian.
gara2 lima peraturan devadatta, vegetarian pun jadi seperti ajaran devadatta, shngga orang yg vegetarian kadang dikaitkan dngan devadatta , heh cpeh gara2 perbuatan beliau.
Selanjutnya,
Kalau menurut bro, apakah vegetarian adalah salah st praktek cintakasih?
apakah makan daging juga mrupakan salah st praktek cinta kasih? Apakah vegetarian adlh salah st wujud mralitas trhdp hewan2?

Iyah, komentar beliau pun hanya spekulasi. Kecuali beliau bisa menunjukkan bukti bahwa Devadatta bukan seorang vegetarian. Saya memilih untuk tidak berkomentar soal Devadatta ini.

Menurut saya, vegetarian itu sendiri banyak motivasi. Ada yang karena alasan diet, ada yang karena alasan gaya hidup, ada yang karena anjuran kesehatan, ada juga karena pandangan atau pengaruh agama. Jika motivasinya karena pandangan dan agama, mungkin pembahasannya condong ke arah moralitas...

Menurut saya, orang yang bervegetarian karena pandangan atau pengaruh agama tidak selalu merupakan praktik cinta kasih. Saya lebih sering melihat orang bervegetarian dalam kategori ini karena "jijik" melihat daging. Mereka beralasan bahwa memakan daging meskipun tidak membunuh adalah perbuatan tidak baik, sebab mengondisikan hewan untuk dibunuh. Kalau begitu, mereka juga harusnya setuju bahwa petugas kremasi melakukan perbuatan tidak baik, sebab mereka membakar jenazah / orang mati. Berarti pekerjaan mereka juga mengondisikan orang mati.

Makan daging bukan perilaku cinta-kasih. Tetapi orang yang memakan daging bisa saja orang yang penuh cinta-kasih. Di sini bedanya.

Vegetarian tidak selalu merupakan bentuk moralitas terhadap hewan. Moralitas itu diterapkan kepada makhluk hidup. Yaitu bagaimana cara Anda memperlakukan hewan peliharaan, memperlakukan hewan di hutan, memperlakukan hewan yang diikat di pohon menanti saat sembelih massal, termasuk bagaimana Anda memperlakukan hewan parasit di rumah Anda; seperti laba-laba, tikus, semut, nyamuk, lalat, dll. Vegetarian tidak berhubungan dengan itu semua. Seperti analogi yang saya berikan di atas. Kalau memakan daging merupakan perbuatan tidak baik, maka membakar (kremasi) mayat juga tidak baik.

Apa Anda setuju?

[The Ronald]

setuju..

[bond]

Lagipula mengambil gaya hidup bervegetarian pun sepertinya terperangkap dalam jaring "dosa mula citta", seperti yang disebutkan Bro Ryu.

Keknya yg mengambil gaya hidup non vegetarian pun sepertinya terperangkap dalam jaring 'Lobha mula citta". 
Jadi sepertinya banyak yg terperangkap jaring2 sensasi lho

[Juice_alpukat]

woukeihlah bro upasaka, menurut anda,apakah membuka industri ( menjual daging hewan ) termasuk karma buruk?

[The Ronald]

ribut aja
hahaha..
intinya balik ke 8 jalan... dan sila buddhis..

vege..karena menyukai rasa sayuran dari pada daging.. ga beda ama yg ga vege..

di karaniya metta sutta

Inilah yang harus dikerjakan oleh mereka yang tangkas dalam kebaikan

Untuk mencapai ketenangan
...
...
merasa puas mudah di layani

yah klodikasih  daging.. yah makan daging...
klo dikasih sayuran yah makan sayuran

ga usah pilih.. ga baik

[The Ronald]

woukeihlah bro upasaka, menurut anda,apakah membuka industri ( menjual daging hewan ) termasuk karma buruk?

coba cek di "bermata pencaharian yang benar"

[ryu]

Lagipula mengambil gaya hidup bervegetarian pun sepertinya terperangkap dalam jaring "dosa mula citta", seperti yang disebutkan Bro Ryu.

Keknya yg mengambil gaya hidup non vegetarian pun sepertinya terperangkap dalam jaring 'Lobha mula citta". 
Jadi sepertinya banyak yg terperangkap jaring2 sensasi lho

makanya Buddha mengajarkan jangan terperangkap terhadap ektrim vege or non vege.

[Mr. Wei]

Daripada pusing cia cai mendingan cia cin cai