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Offline ryu

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Re: [ask] ADI BUDDHA
« Reply #90 on: 18 October 2007, 06:38:40 AM »
Itu perumpamaan dari murid sang Buddha, Kumara Kassapa. Perumpamaan hampir sama dengan yang 5 orang buta yang disuruh menggambarkan bentuk gajah.

Perumpamaan di atas justru bisa di artikan : kita jangan melekat kepada pandangan saja, justru dengan berusaha maju kita bisa mempraktekkan dan bertahap melepaskan pandangan2 itu dan menggantikannya dengan penghayatan langsung.

Bisa juga perumpamaan diatas di ambil dgn makna dalam hal memilih agama, terkadang seseorang yg mempertahankan agamanya secara membuta dan tidak mau menerima pandangan dari agama lain, juga agama lain pun sama dia memakai perumpamaan sama seperti di atas lho, masing2 merasa mereka adalah tali emas.

mungkin yang terpenting adalah apakah tali emas itu dapat berguna bagi diri sendiri dan keluarga dan orang lain atau tidak, atau bisa saja khan bagi sebagian orang tali emas itu malah tidak berguna.

hehehehe hanya satu jawaban ku yang biasa : JALAN TENGAH!
Janganlah memperhatikan kesalahan dan hal-hal yang telah atau belum dikerjakan oleh diri sendiri. Tetapi, perhatikanlah apa yang telah dikerjakan dan apa yang belum dikerjakan oleh orang lain =))

Offline Suchamda

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Re: [ask] ADI BUDDHA
« Reply #91 on: 18 October 2007, 11:21:44 AM »
Bro Ryu,
memang sebelum memahami soal Buddha Nature harus memahami dulu Madhyamaka (Jalan Tengah).
Soal Jalan Tengah, saya mempelajari dari link bagus ini, semoga bermanfaat buat yg berminat:
Commentary on Chandrakirti's Madhyamakavatara
http://www.khyentsefoundation.org/publications.html

Meskipun demikian, utk bisa download kita mesti ask request dulu baru nanti ditunjukkan link utk downloadnya.
"We don't use the Pali Canon as a basis for orthodoxy, we use the Pali Canon to investigate our experience." -- Ajahn Sumedho

Offline ryu

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Re: [ask] ADI BUDDHA
« Reply #92 on: 18 October 2007, 12:15:16 PM »
Bahasa indo ato inglis ni? Kalo bisa di upload ama suhu medho dong hehehehehe
Janganlah memperhatikan kesalahan dan hal-hal yang telah atau belum dikerjakan oleh diri sendiri. Tetapi, perhatikanlah apa yang telah dikerjakan dan apa yang belum dikerjakan oleh orang lain =))

Offline Suchamda

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Re: [ask] ADI BUDDHA
« Reply #93 on: 18 October 2007, 08:55:46 PM »
The following is an excerpt from The Center of the Sunlit Sky by Karl Brunnhölzl. This section is titled The Lineage of Vast Activity Is Not the Same as "Mere Mentalism" (Cittamatra), p. 471:

The lineage of vast activity denies any real or ultimate existence of "mere mind" (citta-matra) or "mere cognizance" (vijnapti-matra). For example, Asanga's Synopsis of Ascertainment refutes both "Sramanas and Brahmans who claim some substantially existing mere mind" by using reasoning and scripture. Vasubandhu's Commentary on The Distinc­tion between the Middle and Extremes says:

    "Based on the observation of mere cognizance, the nonobservation of [outer] referents arises. Based on the nonobservation of referents, also the nonobservation of mere cognizance arises. Thus, one engages in the characteristic of the nonexistence of both apprehender and appre­hended. Therefore, observation is established as the nature of nonob­servation, because if there is no referent to be observed, an observation [of it] it is not suitable. Thus, one should understand observation and nonobservation as being equal."

Sthiramati's subcommentary on this text elaborates:

    "Thus, in its nature, observation is nonobservation.... [This means that] there is no difference between the nonobservation of referents and the observation as mere cognizance in that [both] do not exist. Thus, they are to be understood as equal.... [The latter] is just called "observation," since an unreal object appears [for it]. However, since there is no [actual] referent, nothing is observed by this ["observa­tion"]. Therefore, ultimately, its nature is nonobservation.... Hence, it is said that it does not exist as the nature of observation. In such observation, neither is the nature of observation to be eliminated, nor is the nature of nonobservation to be established. They are the same in that they are undifferentiable.... "So why is [mere] cognition called 'observation' then?" In its nature, it is nonobservation, but [it is des­ignated] in this way, since an unreal object appears [for it], as this is the convention in the world and the treatises."

Maitreya's Ornament of Sutras says:

    "The mind is aware that nothing other than mind exists.
    Then, it is realized that mind does not exist either.
    The intelligent ones are aware that both do not exist
    And abide in the expanse of dharmas (dharmadhatu) in which these are absent."

Even The Sutra of the Arrival in Lanka, which is so often considered one of the classic sutras of Mere Mentalism in the above sense, declares:

    "Through reliance on mere mind,
    One does not imagine outer objects.
    By resting in the observed object of suchness,
    One should go beyond mere mind too.

    Going beyond mere mind,
    One must even go beyond the nonappearance [of apprehender and apprehended].
    The yogic practitioner who rests in nonappearance
    Sees the great vehicle.

    This spontaneously present, peaceful resting
    Is completely purified through aspiration prayers.
    Genuine identityless wisdom
    Sees by way of nonappearance."

The same is clearly stated again and again in other texts of this tradition too, such as Maitreya's Distinction between Phenomena and Their Nature:

    "Through [outer referents] being observed in this way, they are observed as mere cognizance.
    Due to observing [them] as mere cognizance,
    Referents are not observed,
    And through not observing referents,
    Mere cognizance is not observed [either].
    Through not observing this [mere cognizance],
    One enters into the observation of both being without difference.
    This nonobservation of a difference between these two
    Is nonconceptual wisdom.
    It is without object and without observing,
    Since it is characterized
    By nonobservation of all characteristics."

Vasubandhu's Instruction on the Three Natures agrees:

    "Through the observation of [objects] being merely mind,
    A referent to be known is not observed.
    Through not observing a referent to be known,
    Mind cannot be observed [either].
    Through not observing both,
    The expanse of dharmas is observed."

His Thirty Verses says:

    "When consciousness itself
    Does not observe any observed object,
    It rests in the actuality of mere consciousness (vijnaptimatrata),
    Since there is no apprehender without something apprehended.

    Being no-mind and nonreferential,
    It is supramundane wisdom.
    This is the complete change of state
    And the relinquishment of the twofold impregnations of negativity.

    It is the undefiled expanse
    That is inconceivable, positive, and constant.
    It is the blissful Body of Release
    And the Dharma Body of the Great Sage."

In the gradual process of realizing true reality, the expedient purpose of the step of describing objects as being "merely mind" or "merely cognition" is to prevent the total denial of seeming reality in which subject and object appear. To start by presenting just the unqualified nonexistence of mind (the perceiving subject) courts the danger of falling into a nihilistic extreme by failing to account for the mere appearance of the interaction between mind and its objects. Such is stated in Sthiramati's Subcommentary on The Distinction between the Middle and Extremes:

"'[If neither objects nor mind exist,] then why is the nonexistence of mere cognizance not presented right from the start?' The apprehender depends on the apprehended. Consequently, if [it is established that] there is no object to be observed [by the apprehender], one may eas­ily realize [the nonexistence of the apprehender too], since something that has the nature of being [its] observed object has been eliminated. Otherwise, existence would be altogether denied due to the lack of mutual dependence of apprehender and apprehended."

This does not differ from what Candrakirti's Entrance into Centrism says:

    "The Buddhas said, "If there are no knowable objects,
    One easily finds that a knower is excluded."
    If knowable objects do not exist, the negation of a knower is established.
    Therefore, they first negated knowable objects."

The lineage of vast activity clearly postulates that the actual liberating purpose of "mere mind" lies in going beyond it, that is, transcending duality by pointing beyond this very mind and entering the middle path of emptiness or suchness. In this, The Sutra of the Arrival in Lanka is followed:

    "The [Buddhas] do not see mere mind.
    Since there is nothing to be seen [by it], it does not arise.
    This middle path is what is taught
    By me as well as by others.

    Arising and nonarising
    As well as entities and nonentities are emptiness.
    The lack of nature of [all] entities
    Is not to be conceived in terms of such pairs.

    Through the realization that what is seen is of one's own mind,
    Clinging to duality is abandoned.
    Abandoning means fully understanding
    And not destroying mind's imagining activity.

    Through the full understanding that what is seen is of one's own mind,
    Mind's imagining activity ceases to operate.
    Since mind's imagining activity ceases to operate,
    Suchness has become free from mind."

From all of these sources, it should be very clear that such Yogacara terms as "mere mind," "mere cognizance," and "mere consciousness" are used in describing a meditative progression or as provisional antidotes for clinging to external referents. However, these notions are in no way ontologically or metaphysically reified. Rather, once their purpose is fulfilled—that is, realizing that both appre­hender and apprehended do not really exist—they are put out of commission. The notion of "mere mind" in Yogacara is as self-negating as the notion of emptiness in Centrism. Just as in the case of emptiness, to reify or cling to the antidote only turns it into poison.
"We don't use the Pali Canon as a basis for orthodoxy, we use the Pali Canon to investigate our experience." -- Ajahn Sumedho

Offline Sukma Kemenyan

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Re: [ask] ADI BUDDHA
« Reply #94 on: 01 January 2008, 06:29:17 PM »
Adi-Buddha is the "Primordial Buddha."
The term refers to a self-emanating, self-originating Buddha, present before anything else existed.
Bisa tidak Adi Buddha/Buddha Nature ini dianggap sebagai Trigger awal penyebab "Kemenyan" muncul... ?
Loh... koq... malah jadi bahas "Kemenyan" (Atta / Mahluk) ?

Kalau bisa... rasanya Adi Buddha ini bukan Buddha...
Errr.... koq geto... ?

Kalau menilik dari bacaan-bacaan yg gak jelas sumbernya...
Penciptaan Mahluk Bumi (Manusia?) berawal dari Mahluk Alam Abbashara ...

berarti... terjadi proses tumimbal lahir disini dari
Adi Buddha (?) ->...->...-> Abbashara -> Dinosaurus -> Peta -> ... -> ... -> ... -> ... -> Kemenyan (Manusia)

um... yg mengenai dinosaurus dan sampe ke-manusia biarlah dibahas sama ilmuwan-ilmuwan...

Kita coba focus dibagian "Adi Buddha (?) ->...->...-> Abbashara" doank...
Apakah setuju dengan pengambaran begitu (sebagai causa prima)... ?

Kalau setuju...
maka rasanya kaga mungkin itu Buddha...

dalam persepsi yg kubaca sepanjang 7 halaman ini...
Gua jadi seperti ngerasa Buddha Nature / Adi Buddha ini bagaikan bibit mahluk hidup
bibit yg gak jelas kenapa malah menanam kamma sehingga terjerumus tumimbal lahir...

Well... ini seperti mengobrak-abrik apa yg selama ini kupahami...
Buddha koQ tumimbal lahir ?
bukannya sudah nyaris padam semua kamma yg bakalan membuat buddha ber-tumimbal lahir...

Kalau dalam penjelasan Bro Suchamda (mengenai Level 0...Level7)
Kita membahas mundur tentang Kemenyan -> Annata -> no.doctrine -> Buddha Nature
dalam kasus mundur, penjelasan level 0-7 itu bener-bener klop ke gue... (at least this morning)...

tapi... begitu ditelaah balik... koq malah jadi ngawur... ?
 ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^

Offline chingik

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Re: [ask] ADI BUDDHA
« Reply #95 on: 01 January 2008, 08:54:19 PM »
 Adi Buddha memang bukan Buddha dalam arti Buddha personifikasi.
Adi Buddha adalah hakikat Buddha itu sendiri.
Dia bagaikan Tambang emas yang belum ditempa, sedangkan Buddha adalah Emas yang telah ditempa. 
Hakikatnya sama2 emas.

Offline Kelana

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Re: [ask] ADI BUDDHA
« Reply #96 on: 03 January 2008, 12:03:24 PM »
Penggunaan istilah Adi Buddha dalam Buddhis Indonesia memang didasari oleh adanya politisasi. Ini harus diakui. Istilah ini dicetuskan pada saat para tokoh agama Buddha menghadapi persoalan mengenai keberadaan tuhan dalam agama Buddha dalam rangka meresmikan agama Buddha menjadi salah satu agama resmi negara. Untuk menjadi agama resmi negara maka harus mengakui adanya tuhan yang satu. Jelas ini berarti tuhan yang berpersonal ala monoteis.
Adi Buddha seperti yang telah kita bahas, tidak lain adalah Dharmakaya, Sunyata, Nirvana itu sendiri. Dan ketika menyatakan, menggunakan istilah Adi Buddha sebagai tuhan dalam konteks syarat menjadi agama resmi, maka Adi Buddha diidentikkan dengan tuhan personal. Dan ini adalah hal yang salah. Meskipun kita berkilah “ini adalah konsep tuhan ala Buddhis dan berbeda dengan agama lain”, tetapi tetap saja tuhan di sini adalah tuhan personal, mayoritas orang akan beranggapan seperti itu. Dan kita akan kembali kepada pertanyaan tentang definisi tuhan yang identik dengan issara atau isvara dalam bahasa Pali/ Sanskrit. Mahayanis yang sudah baca Lankavatara Sutra tentu tahu bahwa ada penolakan terhadap keberadaan isvara.
GKBU
 
_/\_ suvatthi hotu


- finire -

Offline Kelana

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Re: [ask] ADI BUDDHA
« Reply #97 on: 03 January 2008, 12:44:47 PM »
Adi-Buddha is the "Primordial Buddha."
The term refers to a self-emanating, self-originating Buddha, present before anything else existed.
Bisa tidak Adi Buddha/Buddha Nature ini dianggap sebagai Trigger awal penyebab "Kemenyan" muncul... ?
Loh... koq... malah jadi bahas "Kemenyan" (Atta / Mahluk) ?

Kalau bisa... rasanya Adi Buddha ini bukan Buddha...
Errr.... koq geto... ?

Setahu saya tidak, dan seharusnya tidak.

Quote
Kalau menilik dari bacaan-bacaan yg gak jelas sumbernya...
Penciptaan Mahluk Bumi (Manusia?) berawal dari Mahluk Alam Abbashara ...

berarti... terjadi proses tumimbal lahir disini dari
Adi Buddha (?) ->...->...-> Abbashara -> Dinosaurus -> Peta -> ... -> ... -> ... -> ... -> Kemenyan (Manusia)

Kita bisa membacanya di Aganna Sutta. Aganna Sutta hanya menjelaskan satu bagian episode dari rangkaian proses kemunculan makhluk di bumi. Dengan kata lain, makhluk-makhluk abbhasara juga sebelumnya juga adalah makhluk makhluk lain seperti manusia, dewa, yang dilahirkan kembali menjadi makhluk cahaya pada saat salah satu bumi hancur dan memulai pembentukan kembali.

Quote
Kita coba focus dibagian "Adi Buddha (?) ->...->...-> Abbashara" doank...
Apakah setuju dengan pengambaran begitu (sebagai causa prima)... ?

Kalau setuju...
maka rasanya kaga mungkin itu Buddha...

dalam persepsi yg kubaca sepanjang 7 halaman ini...
Gua jadi seperti ngerasa Buddha Nature / Adi Buddha ini bagaikan bibit mahluk hidup
bibit yg gak jelas kenapa malah menanam kamma sehingga terjerumus tumimbal lahir...

Well... ini seperti mengobrak-abrik apa yg selama ini kupahami...
Buddha koQ tumimbal lahir ?
bukannya sudah nyaris padam semua kamma yg bakalan membuat buddha ber-tumimbal lahir...

Kalau dalam penjelasan Bro Suchamda (mengenai Level 0...Level7)
Kita membahas mundur tentang Kemenyan -> Annata -> no.doctrine -> Buddha Nature
dalam kasus mundur, penjelasan level 0-7 itu bener-bener klop ke gue... (at least this morning)...

tapi... begitu ditelaah balik... koq malah jadi ngawur... ?
 ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^

 :))
Bagi saya, Adi Buddha bukan prima causa. Sama halnya nirvana bukanlah penyebab dari eksistensi dunia saha. Dan jelas Adi Buddha bukanlah Buddha dalam konteks manusia, tetapi tidak lain adalah Dharmakaya, Tathagata-garbha, Sunyata, Nirvana. 

Dari apa yang saya pahami, konsep Mahayana terhadap Nirvana menggunakan katakanlah istilahnya “hukum positif”. Analoginya, ketika dikatakan “tidak kenyang” maka  Mahayana mengatakan “lapar”, ketika dikatakan tanpa-aku maka Mahayana mengatakan “ada-aku” (dengan catatan “tanpa-aku” disini adalah sang “aku” sendiri bagi Mahayanis). Dan penerapan konsep positif ini memang rentan akan kesalahpahaman. Mudah-mudaan bisa paham  ^-^

Demikian yang saya tahu.
GKBU
 
_/\_ suvatthi hotu


- finire -

Offline EVO

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Re: [ask] ADI BUDDHA
« Reply #98 on: 03 January 2008, 09:30:31 PM »
 :)