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Author Topic: Seperti apakah Jhana itu (Menurut Sutta) ?  (Read 117333 times)

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Offline bond

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #105 on: 10 January 2008, 01:59:07 PM »
Quote
If you calm the physical feeling of breath down, the mental feeling of breath starts to arise -- the samadhi nimitta -- usually a light which appears in the mind. However, it can sometimes just appear to be a physical feeling. It can be a deep peacefulness; it can even be like a blackness. The actual description of it is very wide simply because the description is that which everyone adds on to a core experience, which is a mental experience. When it starts to arise you just haven't got the words to describe it. So what we add to it is usually how we understand it to ourselves. Darkness, peacefulness, profound stillness, emptiness, a beautiful light or whatever. Don't particularly worry about what type of nimitta it actually is.

seph... jadi tambah semangat :)

tapi apa itu bukan piti ya?
Yg diatas hanya menjelaskan nimitta bentuk(light) dan non bentuk(perasaan)
Kalau bro yg muncul hanya seperti yg ditulis diatas itu hanya piti, tetapi bila bro merasakan /mengetahui dengan sendirinya ada vitaka,vicara,sukha ,pitti dan ekagata singkatnya ada 5 faktor jhana maka itu jhana. Tapi perlu diingat jika faktor itu tidak stabil maka itu baru upacara samadhi aja. Tapi kalo dia menetap terus, stabil dalam waktu lama itu jhana.
Nah waktu latihan jgn evaluasi apa2 terhadap apa yg kita rasakan , pikirkan just focus and realize it.

bukan membandingkan sama jhana, bond. apakah piti itu sendiri termasuk nimitta?

  ^:)^maaf bro.

Kalo dari keterangan diatas sih piti sebagai nimitta. _/\_
« Last Edit: 10 January 2008, 02:07:05 PM by bond »
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Offline bond

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #106 on: 10 January 2008, 02:05:45 PM »
abang bond, setahu saya nimita tidak selalu bentuk kristal or cahaya.. itu semua tergantung dari objek jaman dahulu bgt.. sebelum anda lahir di dunia ini.. biasanya yg kristal objek pada hidup lampaunya kasina...
namun nimita tiap org beda2 tergantung mm perangai kali yah..
dan setahu saya juga.. kalo  udah cerap jhana 1 , semua indra udah tutup.. plg gampang, u  udah gak denger apa2..
itu aja patokannya..
tapi harus ehipasiko seh.. jgn u percaya aja.. kata2 gue.. siapa tahu kata2 wo gombal belaka.. kan nda ada yg tahu...
selamat ber jhana ria... ;D

Bro andry, setau saya jhana 1 masih bisa dengar suara , hanya terabaikan, tetapi suara juga bisa menjadi rintangan dalam jhana 1. Hal ini telah terkonfirmasi oleh Sayalay Dipankara dan Visudhi magga.

Kalau masalah nimita keliatanya memang ngak selalu bentuk yg nongol kalau di lihat dari teks ataupun ceramah2 yg ada. Tapi ngak tau juga deh. Soalnya dulu objeknya alo kasina. _/\_
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Offline tesla

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #107 on: 10 January 2008, 04:41:01 PM »
Quote
Bro andry, setau saya jhana 1 masih bisa dengar suara , hanya terabaikan, tetapi suara juga bisa menjadi rintangan dalam jhana 1. Hal ini telah terkonfirmasi oleh Sayalay Dipankara dan Visudhi magga.

kalau kita sedang larut dalam sebuah pekerjaan yg memerlukan konsentrasi mendalam, kita sering tidak mendengar/melihat/mengetahui apa yg terjadi di luar batasan pekerjaan tsb. apakah seperti ini yg dimaksud tidak mendengarkan/mengabaikan  suara? apakah ini jg termasuk jhana?  :-?
Lepaskan keserakahan akan kesenangan. Lihatlah bahwa melepaskan dunia adalah kedamaian. Tidak ada sesuatu pun yang perlu kau raup, dan tidak ada satu pun yang perlu kau dorong pergi. ~ Buddha ~

Offline bond

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #108 on: 10 January 2008, 09:44:34 PM »
Quote
Bro andry, setau saya jhana 1 masih bisa dengar suara , hanya terabaikan, tetapi suara juga bisa menjadi rintangan dalam jhana 1. Hal ini telah terkonfirmasi oleh Sayalay Dipankara dan Visudhi magga.

kalau kita sedang larut dalam sebuah pekerjaan yg memerlukan konsentrasi mendalam, kita sering tidak mendengar/melihat/mengetahui apa yg terjadi di luar batasan pekerjaan tsb. apakah seperti ini yg dimaksud tidak mendengarkan/mengabaikan  suara? apakah ini jg termasuk jhana?  :-?

Saat berada di Jhana 1  suara ada dan kita tau , tapi pikiran mengabaikannya seperti yg anda ilustrasikan,dan tentunya harus disertai faktor2 jhana, baru dikatakan jhana 1. Tetapi Kalau yg anda ilustrasikan diatas tanpa disertai faktor jhana, ya berarti bukan jhana.

Tetapi bisa menjadi rintangan, kalau pikiran lengah, atau ada suara yg benar2 mengusik, maka bisa terdengar suara itu dengan jelas. Tinggal saat itu kita menyikapi dengan pikiran kita.

Kalau Jhana 4 ada cerita dalam sutta, Saya lupa namanya, yg dia lagi meditasi, ada segerombolan kereta kerajaan lewat, dia tidak dengar sama sekali.

Kalau jhana 4 memang sudah tidak dengar apa2 lagi ,bahkan dibilang nafasnya berhenti _/\_
« Last Edit: 10 January 2008, 09:49:16 PM by bond »
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Offline Sukma Kemenyan

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #109 on: 24 January 2008, 02:55:27 AM »
Mangap tapi gw kira ini sedang berbicara nimitta:
Quote
Kosala Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.029.than.html
- Thanissaro Bhikkhu -
[5] "There are these eight dimensions of [mental] mastery. Which eight?

(i) "One percipient of form internally sees forms externally as limited, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the first dimension of [mental] mastery.

(ii) "One percipient of form internally sees forms externally as immeasurable, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the second dimension of [mental] mastery.

(iii) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as limited, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the third dimension of [mental] mastery.

(iv) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as immeasurable, beautiful & ugly. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the fourth dimension of [mental] mastery.

(v) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as blue, blue in their color, blue in their features, blue in their glow. Just as a flax-flower is blue, blue in its color, blue in its features, blue in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is blue, blue in its color, blue in its features, blue in its glow, in the same way one percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as blue, blue in their color, blue in their features, blue in their glow. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the fifth dimension of [mental] mastery.

(vi) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as yellow, yellow in their color, yellow in their features, yellow in their glow. Just as a kannikara-flower is yellow, yellow in its color, yellow in its features, yellow in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is yellow, yellow in its color, yellow in its features, yellow in its glow, in the same way one percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as yellow, yellow in their color, yellow in their features, yellow in their glow. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the sixth dimension of [mental] mastery.

(vii) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as red, red in their color, red in their features, red in their glow. Just as a bandha-jivaka-flower is red, red in its color, red in its features, red in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is red, red in its color, red in its features, red in its glow, in the same way one percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as red, red in their color, red in their features, red in their glow. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the seventh dimension of [mental] mastery.

(viii) "One percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as white, white in their color, white in their features, white in their glow. Just as the morning star is white, white in its color, white in its features, white in its glow, or just as Benares muslin, smooth on both sides, is white, white in its color, white in its features, white in its glow, in the same way one percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as white, white in their color, white in their features, white in their glow. Mastering them, he is percipient of 'I know; I see.' This is the eighth dimension of [mental] mastery.

"These are the eight dimensions of mental mastery. Now, of these eight dimensions of mastery, this is supreme: when one percipient of the formless internally sees forms externally as white, white in their color, white in their features, white in their glow. And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.

another translation...
Universal Impermanence
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel238.html
Quote
- Nyanaponika Thera -
"Monks, there are eight stages of mastery.34 What are the eight?

"(1) Perceiving forms on one's own body, one sees forms externally, small ones, beautiful or ugly: and in mastering them one understands: 'I know, I understand!' This is the first stage of mastery... (8) Not perceiving forms, on one's own body, one sees forms externally, white forms, of white color, white appearance, white luster, and mastering these, one understands: 'I know, I understand!' This is the eighth stage of mastery.

"Among these eight, the highest is: not perceiving forms on one's own body, one sees forms externally, white forms... There are, indeed, monks, persons who perceive in such a way. But even for persons who thus perceive, change takes place, transformation takes place.

"When seeing this, monks, a well-taught noble disciple is repelled by it; being repelled, he becomes disenchanted about the highest, not to speak of what is low.
---
Bagaimana gw bisa ngambil kesimpulan Kosala Sutta ngomongin nimitta ?
pada kosala sutta juga ngomongin Ten Kasina (bener tidak ini ngomongin kasina?)...
Quote
Kosala Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.029.than.html
- Thanissaro Bhikkhu -
[4] "There are these ten totality-dimensions. Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual,3 unlimited. One perceives the water-totality... the fire-totality... the wind-totality... the blue-totality... the yellow-totality... the red-totality... the white-totality... the space-totality... the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. These are the ten totalities. Now, of these ten totalities, this is supreme: when one perceives the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. And there are beings who are percipient in this way. Yet even in the beings who are percipient in this way there is still aberration, there is change. Seeing this, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with that. Being disenchanted with that, he becomes dispassionate toward what is supreme, and even more so toward what is inferior.


----
Question:
[5] "There are these eight dimensions of [mental] mastery. Which eight?"
^ Apa bahasa (istilah pali)-nya "mental-mastery" ?
« Last Edit: 24 January 2008, 03:24:55 AM by Kemenyan »

Offline bond

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #110 on: 08 February 2008, 02:31:42 PM »
http://www.jhanasadvice.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/PracticeChart.pdf

Bisa buka web diatas ada chart ttg jhana dari muridnya Paauk Sayadaw.


Smoga bermanfaat _/\_
Natthi me saranam annam, Buddho me saranam varam, Etena saccavajjena, Sotthi te hotu sabbada

Offline BlackDragon

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #111 on: 27 February 2008, 10:57:36 PM »
Busyet dah, Master2 lagi Berargumentasi neh :o

Tapi sayang banyak pake bahasa dewa yah, ga semua bisa nyambung.

Khususnya saya ;D ;D ;D

Tapi terusin yah banyak yg bermanfaat bagi kami para junior. _/\_
Hanya orang bodoh yg merasa dirinya cukup pintar.

Offline Sumedho

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #112 on: 23 May 2008, 06:47:32 PM »
jadi bisa disimpulkan,

Jhana ala sutta -> tidak ada nimitta, ada faktor2x jhana. Masih ada sensasi fisik.
Jhana ala visuddhimagga -> ada nimitta dengan faktor2x jhana. Tidak bisa merasakan dkk.

Secara mendetail memang berbeda penjelasan jhana menurut kedua itu. So ? Pilih yang mana ?
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Offline hudoyo

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #113 on: 16 June 2008, 08:10:03 PM »
Jhana ala sutta -> tidak ada nimitta, ada faktor2x jhana. Masih ada sensasi fisik.

Mau tanya, nih, apakah 'jhana ala sutta' ini ada bedanya dengan yang diuraikan oleh Jhanananda Jeff Brooks?

Salam,
hudoyo

Offline tesla

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #114 on: 17 June 2008, 12:59:17 AM »
baru dapat dari google & mencocokkan dengan pengalaman saya...
mohon pendapat teman2x ^:)^

Quote
Ajahn Dhammadharo

Once he was asked: "The Buddha talked about the need to develop mindfulness and concentration. Could you say more about concentration?"

His reply: "There are three kinds of concentration developed in meditation. Two of them are developed on the path to absorption (jhana) and these are access and full absorption concentration. Each of these is developed by fixing the mind one-pointedly on a single meditation object. Such meditations include visualization of fixed forms or colours, or concentrating the mind on one particular feeling like loving-kindness. When access and absorption concentration are developed, bliss and tranquillity arise, the meditator is fully absorbed in the object, and no hindrances can disturb him. This provisional eradication of defilementsa state free from desire, aversion and confusionlasts only so long as the meditator keeps the mind on the meditation object. As soon as the mind leaves its absorption in the object, bliss disappears and the mind is again beset by the flow of defilements. There is additionally a danger of this fixed concentration. Since it does not generate wisdom it can lead to clinging to bliss or even misuse of the powers of concentration, thereby actually increasing defilements.

"The third kind of concentration is what is referred to in the eightfold path as right concentration or perfect concentration. This is concentration developed on a moment-to-moment basis in insight meditation. Only moment-to-moment concentration following the path of mindfulness leads to the destruction of defilements. This concentration is not developed by fixing the mind motionless to one object, but by being mindful of the changing bodily sensations, feelings, consciousness, and mind objects. When properly established in the inner body and mind, moment-to-moment concentration leads to the destruction of the rounds of rebirth. Through this concentration, we develop the ability to see clearly the five aggregatesform, feeling, volition and consciousness which make up what we conventionally call men and women."

di awal perjalanan meditasi saya (samatha, objek: anapanasati), ada satu kali saya sampai pada tempat tanpa batas yg sangat sulit utk dideskripsikan bahkan belum sempat mengenalinya sudah hilang... setelah itu memang terjadi seperti yg dikatakan ajahn dhammadharo, saya sangat mencari2x hal itu lagi (menambah kemelekatan :hammer: ) & itu tak tercapai lagi. ketika mulai melupakannya, dalam interval yg tidak terlalu jarang, sering mengalami sensasi di mana pada permulaannya tubuh seperti ringan, memanjang, menipis, dll... pointnya adalah menyenangkan... berdasarkan deskripsi di atas, 'bliss & tranquility' muncul setelah access & absortion (upacara-samadhi & jhana?) tercapai. jgn2x yg pengalaman pertama itu jhana & yg kedua itu upacara samadhi? hehehe :P

sensasi begini ketika ingin dirasakan yg terjadi malah balik lagi ke dunia nyata ^-^ tapi kalau tidak terganggu, kadang2x berlanjut pula ke sensasi lain. tubuh yg terasa enteng ini terasa pecah menjadi bagian2x kecil & setiap bagian berputar2x sendiri. ini apa yah? terus terang, ada moment2x tujuan saya meditasi malah jadi ini...

note: meditasi duduk saya tidak lama2x, hanya kira2x 30 menit ;D
Lepaskan keserakahan akan kesenangan. Lihatlah bahwa melepaskan dunia adalah kedamaian. Tidak ada sesuatu pun yang perlu kau raup, dan tidak ada satu pun yang perlu kau dorong pergi. ~ Buddha ~

Offline Sumedho

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #115 on: 17 June 2008, 08:30:11 AM »
Sekilas sih kalau tidak salah Jhanananda Jeff Brooks itu menekankan pada "jhana-nimitta" atau tanda2x Jhana yg disebut "charismatic phenomena". Dia juga sering menekankan pada sensasi2x ketika meditasi.

Pada Jhanananda lebih menekankan dan mencari "pertanda2x" "charismatic phenomena" seperti ear-ringging, halusinasi, OOBE.

CMIIW
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Offline tula

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #116 on: 27 June 2008, 12:44:08 PM »
sensasi begini ketika ingin dirasakan yg terjadi malah balik lagi ke dunia nyata ^-^ tapi kalau tidak terganggu, kadang2x berlanjut pula ke sensasi lain. tubuh yg terasa enteng ini terasa pecah menjadi bagian2x kecil & setiap bagian berputar2x sendiri. ini apa yah? terus terang, ada moment2x tujuan saya meditasi malah jadi ini...

note: meditasi duduk saya tidak lama2x, hanya kira2x 30 menit ;D

hmmmmm kenalkan .. ini tula :D (bukan tulang lho b-()

dari yg tula pahami (tolong dibenerkan .. spy ga salah trus2 an), sensasi yg di utarakan di sutta2 itu kan sensasi nyaman (enak gitu dah intinya), apakah yg dimaksud sensasi enak itu seperti yg tesla sebutin ?

aku ga tau apakah ini bener .. sensasi yg tesla sebutin itu kok dalam deskripsi itu seperti orang yg dalam kondisi fly ya ? (saya lom perna ngedrugs NARKOBA jadi fly itu sendiri ga tau gimana .. cuman kira2 aja)

O iya sekalian nanya ... kalo perasaan badan jadi ringan, kepala isa serasa molor, berputer2 itu pasti kerasa kalo kita focusing mind dalam waktu tertentu aja harusnya .. soalnya tula setiap kali selalu gitu (kadang lama kadang cepet kerasanya, tergantung seberapa focus, kalo pikiran di biarkan ngelantur2 trus di tarik pelan2 ya kerasanya lebih lama, tp kalo di paksa focus akan kerasa lebih cepet itu gejala2) ..... dan aku ga ngerasa "enak" nya dari gejala2 ini sama sekali ...

o iya lagi :D ... setelah sampe di muter2 ringan2 dll itu ... ya disono2 duang ... mau pikiran di biarkan ngelantur, trus di focus dikit lgsg kerasa lagi (cepet), tp ya disana2 aja ... kira2 harus ngapain ya ?
dulu pas (beberap taun lalu) pas masi under bimbingan bhante surya bhumi di vihara sekali medit 2 jam .. ya gunu2 duang ....

o iya maneh :D wakakakakakakak =))
ada 1 cara lagi dapet in itu muter2 lonjong2 dll itu .... cobain .. mau tidur ... dah setengah2 tidur gitu ... tp di tahan2 di paksa ga tidur (sambil merem) akan kerasa jg itu gejala2 ... tp babalas nya biasa ke tidur .. kalo sengaja mau focus ga tidur, kecuali sampe emang niat utk berhenti focus baru mulet2 tidur :">

helep me get through next step ....

wuwu helep me jg dunk :( hikz

Offline Sumedho

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #117 on: 27 June 2008, 01:37:52 PM »
keknya di sutta tidak ada dijelaskan tentang sensasi2x. Biasanya sensasi2x itu dijelaskan oleh para guru meditasi yang menceritakan pengalamannya sendiri.

Capa get through yah gampang, ignore it, cuekin, lepaskan :)
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Offline tula

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #118 on: 27 June 2008, 08:58:41 PM »
selama ini si cuek 2 aja .. sampe baca ketikan mas tesla diatas :) ..
btw selama ini cuek tp kapan hari sempet ada kejadian aneh itu ... yg dug dug der itu ... tp apa nanya disini sekalian ?

Offline Sukma Kemenyan

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Re: Seperti apakah Jhana itu ?
« Reply #119 on: 27 June 2008, 09:01:52 PM »
 [at] Tula, um...
Boleh dijelasin (detail) sensasinya gmana ?
en Objeknya apa?


 

anything