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Offline William_phang

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #375 on: 22 December 2011, 10:44:55 AM »
Ternyata bro William_phang lebih jeli membaca,
jadi bolehkah di list lengkap tingkatan2 kesucian yg ada, supaya bro Choa mau menunjukan posisinya ada dimana ?

apakah tingkatan tsb (pencapaian kesucian) pada manusia dapat (cepat) berubah ?
seberapa lama tingkatan tsb dpt bertahan ?

thanks atas berkah dari thread ini bisa dpt +1...  dan udah gw bagikan utk bro William +1 atas posting yg jeli...

mohon transparansi ya...!

mgkn agak oot ya.... ini saya copas dari tempat lain:
=============

Yana is not the carrier or what is carried—it is the carrying. Thus Hinayana means "carrying the smaller load," and Mahayana, "carrying the great load."

Hinayana practitioners are those who find samsara unbearable and want to escape from it into the state of nirvana. They help others enormously by renouncing the world and striving to obtain freedom, but their main thought is personal liberation from samsara. An arhat—one who has completed this path of personal liberation—has many spiritual powers, and can give spiritual teaching and aid to many beings, but still has to remove jneyavarana. The attainment of nirvana will prove not to be sufficient and the arhat will then have to enter the bodhisattva path and progress through the ten levels to the final, complete buddhahood.

Those who practise Mahayana also renounce samsara and want to escape from it. But because they identify with all other beings in samsara, Mahayanists do not want merely personal liberation. Through their great concern for others, Mahayanists' all-motivating wish is to give complete happiness to all beings. They understand first that all beings in samsara—insects, devas and the rest—are equal in that they all want happiness and do not want suffering. They also perceive that none of these beings has the satisfaction of complete happiness. For this reason, they develop the great wish to take all beings out of suffering. This wish, which is also a kind of caitta, is called mahakarunika, "the great compassionate one." Mahayana practitioners realize that all beings in samsara, though they may have transitory happiness, do not have true, lasting, happiness.

The next wish, that of giving all beings the ultimate happiness of buddhahood is called mahamaitreya, "the great wish of active love." These wishes are stronger than the dissatisfaction of the Hinayana follower. Before this stage of aspiration is reached, there are many other practices that have to be developed so that Mahayanists can fully realize the suffering of beings.

At first they want to bring all beings to enlightenment without any help. This is called adicinta, "the first thought." Then, when they examine themselves to see if they have enough power to do so alone, they find that the same defilements that other beings have exist within themselves as well. Thus they try to find who does have the power to help others in this way. Through this they find that only a buddha can do so, and develop the wish to reach the buddha stage quickly. This is bodhicitta 12, "the mind dedicated to enlightenment."

When one has practised this a great deal, mahakarunika, mahamaitreya, adicinta and bodhicitta become part of the person's very nature. At this point the practitioner becomes a bodhisattva, though not yet an arya-bodhisattva—a very advanced bodhisattva, who has seen emptiness clearly. When the practitioner reaches the high state of a bodhisattva, all the devas pay respect. Once bodhicitta has arisen, the seed of Dharma will continue to grow whether the person is awake or asleep, and even very harmful karma can be prevented from ripening.

Usually, people can remove mental defilements only by meditation on emptiness. Bodhicitta makes meditation on emptiness much more powerful. When a soldier is fighting an enemy he needs to use his weapon, but he also needs to have good food; bodhicitta is like this food.

To reach the final goal we need two instruments: prajna (wisdom), and upaya (right means), which contains both compassion and compassionate activity. 13 Mahakarunika, mahamaitreya, adicinta and bodhicitta are all included in upaya. Prajna is seeing things as they really are. A bodhisattva must have both of these. Arhats, who have completed the Hinayana path, are out of samsara and have attained the lowest level of nirvana, are strong in prajna—in the realization of emptiness—but weak in upaya. They have compassion (karuna), but not the great compassion of mahakarunika. They have active love (maitri), but not mahamaitreya. The main difference between their path and that of the Mahayana is on the side of upaya. Eventually, arhats will have to develop it.

The Five Paths and the Ten Levels

There are five successive paths on which a bodhisattva develops:

    The path of accumulation (sambharamarga)
    The path of training or preparation (prayogamarga)
    The path of seeing (darshanamarga)
    The path of intense contemplation (bhavanamarga)
    The path of liberation or no more training(vimuktimarga)


When bodhicitta has been developed until it is natural and intrinsic, the bodhisattva has completely obtained the sambharamarga (which has lower levels before this point). Then many spiritual powers (rddhi) are attained, such as psychic power (mahabhijna), which enables the bodhisattva to know other people's thoughts, to know the past and future events of other beings' lives, to fly, to have multiple bodies, and so forth. A bodhisattva does not concentrate on these techniques specially to get a particular power; these powers come naturally. But the bodhisattva is able to put them to good use because these powers aid greatly in seeing the karma, spiritual development and potentialities of other beings, and whether or not they are in a state where they can be helped escape from samsara. The bodhisattva can see at which place beings can receive teachings from the buddhas and bodhisattvas in the various buddha-fields. 14 Many other virtues also accrue to the bodhisattva.

At this point the most important thing for the bodhisattvas is to meditate on emptiness, which is still not perceived clearly. When emptiness becomes clearer the second path, the path of training, is attained; this stage immediately precedes becoming an arya-bodhisattva.

Then, after much meditation, the feeling arises within the bodhisattva that the mind that meditates and emptiness are one, like water poured into water; (this feeling, though, is deceptive). This signifies the attainment of the path of seeing and the becoming of an arya-bodhisattva. Although the arya-bodhisattva still retains old karma as well as some defilements, no new karma is produced from this level of attainment onwards, and there is a great increase in psychic powers. For instance, the arya-bodhisattva begins obtaining the power to eradicate past karma and even deeper defilements. Because there are many different layers of avarana, they have to be removed one by one; as the psychic powers grow stronger, the bodhisattva can remove more and more layers.

Due to the first direct perception of emptiness on the path of seeing, the bodhisattva removes the first layer of obscuration of defilements (kleshavarana). The bodhisattva now has greater wisdom because there are fewer layers of defilements covering or hiding reality. On the first two paths, the obscurations are suppressed but are not truly eradicated and therefore they can still rise again. But on the path of seeing, one layer is actually removed forever. In all, there are ten layers of defilement-obscurations; they are like ten cloths which hide reality and have to be peeled or washed away. The practitioner removes the veils covering reality in the same way that one washes clothes, by using the strength of washing soap appropriate to the amount of dirt.

There are ten levels of arya-bodhisattva:

  1. The joyous (pramudita)
  2. The stainless (vimala)
  3. The light-maker (prabhakari)
  4. The radiant (arcishmati)
  5. The very hard to conquer (sudurjaya)
  6. The turning-toward (abhimukhi)
  7. The far-going (durangama)
  8. The unshakable (acala)
  9. The good mind (sadhumati)
  10. The cloud of dharma (dharmamegha)


" The joyous" level, pramudita, is reached on the path of seeing, and all the other nine on the path of intense contemplation. At each of the ten levels, the bodhisattva has increasingly greater virtue and has overcome more defilements. In several scriptures, the amount of increase in virtue is given for each level; at some levels the virtues are innumerable. All these levels are a connected stream. One layer of defilement-obscuration is removed at each of the first seven levels; at the eighth, "The unshakable," the remaining three are removed so that the bodhisattva is then free entirely from kleshavarana. With respect to the removal of defilements, the bodhisattva is equal with the lower arhats, but in terms of the virtue amassed through such practice, the bodhisattva is much higher. These defilements are all removed by meditation on emptiness; at the level of the unshakable there is particularly strong growth in the strength of this meditation on emptiness.

At the ninth level, "The good mind," the bodhisattva begins at last to remove the wisdom-obscuration— jneyavarana. This is very subtle and difficult to perceive. If we put some garlic or onion into a pot and then remove it, the smell still remains. In the same way, although the defilement has gone, this obscuration still remains. At the level of "good mind," the bodhisattva is out of samsara but the wisdom is not quite perfect. At this point the bodhisattva can recognize and begin to remove the only remaining factor obscuring reality: the wisdom-obscuration, Without the removal of the wisdom-obscuration, the bodhisattva cannot help beings to the extent that a fully enlightened buddha can. The degree to which we can help others depends on the depth of our own wisdom.

While defilement-obscuration is like a cut that gives pain, the wisdom-obscuration is like the painless scar that remains when the cut has healed but not finally disappeared. "The cloud of dharma" is the level immediately before buddhahood, on which the last traces of the wisdom-obscuration are taken away. The removal of obscurations is like removing increasingly fine and wispy veils. The development of greater spiritual power is like having stronger and stronger binoculars to see more and more clearly. At the buddha stage, all obscurations are gone. Even a small part of a buddha's mind can see all things clearly at the same time. If there is even a tiny cloud in the sky there is still a small shadow on the earth, but when this cloud has disappeared the sun can shine everywhere. At the level called "The cloud of dharma," the bodhisattva meditates on emptiness with perfect concentration. Although emptiness can be seen clearly and completely, the tenth level bodhisattva cannot perceive both emptiness and phenomena simultaneously; a buddha, however, can see both at the same time. Things are empty of independent self- existence, but they themselves are not emptiness. The moment this final trace of the wisdom-obscuration disappears, phenomenal existence and emptiness suddenly appear together. At this moment a buddha can see phenomenality and emptiness simultaneously, not only with eye-perception, but also with the other sense-perceptions. At the time of becoming a buddha, not only is knowledge of the deepest nature of everything attained, but also the final virtues of body—such as easily multiplying the body an infinite number of times—and speech—such as being able to give teachings to any being without difficulty.

The virtue of a buddha's speech is unlimited. If, for instance, a thousand people each ask a different question in a different language at the same time, a buddha, by saying just one word, can answer all their questions immediately. We do not have the inner power to do this kind of action because of our avaranas. In all, there are sixty-four virtues of a buddha's speech: sweetness, softness, an attraction that makes people want to listen, a quality that gives a feeling of peace to those who hear it, and so forth. The different virtues of the body, speech and mind of a buddha can be found throughout many different sutras, and are presented collectively in a work by Lama Tsongkhapa. 16

There are one hundred and twelve different virtues of a buddha's body. The duty of a buddha is to help sentient beings; if it is helpful, in one second he can multiply himself as many times as there are beings, or can manifest as any kind of being or object such as trees, water, and so on. The buddha performs this type of miraculous action always and only to help beings find release from samsara.

To receive such help, we must also contact the buddha from our own side. At night, when the moon is shining on the surface of a lake that is clear and smooth, the light can shine on all parts of it, but if the surface is disturbed or overgrown the moon cannot penetrate or be reflected; when it is smooth and clear, the moon is reflected clearly in it, the reflection being just like the moon in the sky. In the same way, the buddha's help goes out to all beings equally; it is the beings' receptivity that varies. We must, for our part, make contact with the buddha; if it were not necessary for us to act from our own side, the buddha would have already taken us all out of samsara. A buddha has the ultimate mahakarunika, so he would not leave beings in suffering if by his own efforts alone he were able to take them out of it. If you clap your left hand with your right, your left hand must be there to receive the blow, otherwise there is no sound.

Once all coverings are removed and the power of the virtue that has been built up is at its full height, there is nothing we cannot do. We can multiply our bodies infinitely and can give teachings on all levels, from the beginning of the path to the goal; the virtue of a buddha's mind is that even a small part of it knows the reality of everything. This buddha stage is the effect of many causes, achieved through an enormous amount of Dharma practice.

After the historical buddha, Shakyamuni, had finished his teaching on earth, all the beings there at the time who had the karma to see and hear him had done so, and so he went to continue his work in other realms. Although this form has disappeared, he can still help beings in other forms. Buddhas can take ordinary forms such as a friend, guru and so forth.

=================

Semoga membantu bro Johan3k

Offline dilbert

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #376 on: 22 December 2011, 10:48:43 AM »
perdebatan (saling menguji) dilakukan oleh kedua belah pihak, dan jika dua2nya mempertahankan pendapatnya masing2, maka bantah2an memang tidak terhindarkan. tapi hal ini pun bukanlah sesuatu yg buruk. dari bantah2an itu akan terkuak kebenaran, dan ini jelas bermanfaat bagi para pembaca. "saling bantu untuk memahami sesuatu", sepertinya tahap ini sudah lewat, dan sudah memasuki tahap berikutnya yaitu "bantah2an".

menurut saya, debat-debat-an bisa jadi salah satu upaya "penyelidikan dhamma" sebagai salah satu tujuh faktor menuju pencerahan.,
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
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Offline dilbert

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #377 on: 22 December 2011, 10:50:21 AM »
Ikutan ah....untuk memperjelas masalahnya..

Didalam theread ini YM Choa sudah menyatakan bahwa muridnya aja sudah "arahat" dan beliau sendiri, YM Choa, adalah seorang "bodhisatva/mahasatva" tingkatan tinggi...dimana kalo arahat itu cuma tingkat setara demgan bodhisatva tingkat 5. jadi dapat dipastikan bahwa beliau sudah jauh diatas Arahat Kan?.... apakah krn sudah diatas arahat jd tidak pantas dipertanyakan?

CMIIW, dalam dasabhumi bodhisatva, savaka buddha di-kategori-kan sebagai bodhisatva tingkat ke-7...
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
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Offline will_i_am

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #378 on: 22 December 2011, 10:50:50 AM »
ayo mulai
sorry, can't repeat kama action within 720 hours...  ;D ;D
entar ingetin lagi yah kalo ane utang satu +...  :)) :)) :))
hiduplah hanya pada hari ini, jangan mengkhawatirkan masa depan ataupun terpuruk dalam masa lalu.
berbahagialah akan apa yang anda miliki, jangan mengejar keinginan akan memiliki
_/\_

Offline William_phang

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #379 on: 22 December 2011, 10:54:30 AM »
CMIIW, dalam dasabhumi bodhisatva, savaka buddha di-kategori-kan sebagai bodhisatva tingkat ke-7...

Iya saya salah soal level itu.. kalo baca diatas kayaknya level 7 ato 8 soalnya arahat masih harus menembus ato melenyapkan jneyavarana.... dimana level ini baru bisa ditembus kalo sudah level 9...

tetapi kayak tetap aja masih kurang kayaknya:

To reach the final goal we need two instruments: prajna (wisdom), and upaya (right means), which contains both compassion and compassionate activity. 13 Mahakarunika, mahamaitreya, adicinta and bodhicitta are all included in upaya. Prajna is seeing things as they really are. A bodhisattva must have both of these. Arhats, who have completed the Hinayana path, are out of samsara and have attained the lowest level of nirvana, are strong in prajna—in the realization of emptiness—but weak in upaya. They have compassion (karuna), but not the great compassion of mahakarunika. They have active love (maitri), but not mahamaitreya. The main difference between their path and that of the Mahayana is on the side of upaya. Eventually, arhats will have to develop it.



« Last Edit: 22 December 2011, 10:59:59 AM by william_phang »

Offline Jubah Emas

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #380 on: 22 December 2011, 10:59:35 AM »
ini YM Choa-nya mana ya??? ora nongol2

Offline dilbert

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #381 on: 22 December 2011, 11:05:57 AM »
Iya saya salah soal level itu.. kalo baca diatas kayaknya level 7 ato 8 soalnya arahat masih harus menembus ato melenyapkan jneyavarana.... dimana level ini baru bisa ditembus kalo sudah level 9...

tetapi kayak tetap aja masih kurang kayaknya:

To reach the final goal we need two instruments: prajna (wisdom), and upaya (right means), which contains both compassion and compassionate activity. 13 Mahakarunika, mahamaitreya, adicinta and bodhicitta are all included in upaya. Prajna is seeing things as they really are. A bodhisattva must have both of these. Arhats, who have completed the Hinayana path, are out of samsara and have attained the lowest level of nirvana, are strong in prajna—in the realization of emptiness—but weak in upaya. They have compassion (karuna), but not the great compassion of mahakarunika. They have active love (maitri), but not mahamaitreya. The main difference between their path and that of the Mahayana is on the side of upaya. Eventually, arhats will have to develop it.

Lah memang savaka buddha (arahat siswa) dibedakan dengan pacceka buddha dan sammasambuddha. dan bagaimana proses / parami dalam pencapaian ketiga jenis buddha ini tentu-nya berbeda. Bahkan untuk bakal calon sammasambuddha sendiri dibedakan atas bakal buddha pannadhika, saddhadhika dan viriyadhika dan perbedaan kualitas 3 bakal buddha (bodhisatva) ini sendiri juga berbeda antara kombinasa panna, saddha dan viriya.

Pertanyaan TS ini adalah RETURN of ARHAT (sravaka, pracetya, samyak buddha)
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
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Offline William_phang

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #382 on: 22 December 2011, 11:16:59 AM »
Lah memang savaka buddha (arahat siswa) dibedakan dengan pacceka buddha dan sammasambuddha. dan bagaimana proses / parami dalam pencapaian ketiga jenis buddha ini tentu-nya berbeda. Bahkan untuk bakal calon sammasambuddha sendiri dibedakan atas bakal buddha pannadhika, saddhadhika dan viriyadhika dan perbedaan kualitas 3 bakal buddha (bodhisatva) ini sendiri juga berbeda antara kombinasa panna, saddha dan viriya.

Pertanyaan TS ini adalah RETURN of ARHAT (sravaka, pracetya, samyak buddha)

Untuk menjawab pertanyaan TS kan tregantung cara pandang yg mana, bukan?...

disini ada YM Choa. menyatakan bahwa murid beliau saja sudah arahat.... dan beliau sendiri sudah diatas arahat dan menyatakan diri sebagai bodhisattva tingkat tinggi dan sudah diatas arahat... karena beliau sudah merealisasikan dhamma dan arahat pada kehidupan yang lampau... dan boleh dikatakan bahwa beliau secara tersirat menyatakan bahwa berdasarkan pengalaman beliau bahwa Arahat masih bisa terlahir lagi kalo mereka mau...

nah saya jelaskan itu untuk memperjelas saja....
« Last Edit: 22 December 2011, 11:18:48 AM by william_phang »

Offline will_i_am

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #383 on: 22 December 2011, 11:22:19 AM »
kok sepertinya meditasi kekosongan itu mirip dengan meditasi arupa jhana 3 yak(akincanayatna/kekosongan)??
dan menurut kanon pali, kekosongan masih dua tingkat dibawah nibbana... CMIIW
hiduplah hanya pada hari ini, jangan mengkhawatirkan masa depan ataupun terpuruk dalam masa lalu.
berbahagialah akan apa yang anda miliki, jangan mengejar keinginan akan memiliki
_/\_

Offline William_phang

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #384 on: 22 December 2011, 11:25:56 AM »
kok sepertinya meditasi kekosongan itu mirip dengan meditasi arupa jhana 3 yak(akincanayatna/kekosongan)??
dan menurut kanon pali, kekosongan masih dua tingkat dibawah nibbana... CMIIW

Saya coba jelaskan ya apa yg saya pernah baca dan dengar.... kekosongan itu bisa dibagi menjadi:
- kekosongan rupa - ini kayak arupa brahma
- kekosongan nama - ini kalo tidak salah -asannasatta
- kekosongan nama - rupa --- ini adalah nibbana

mohon koreksi kalo salah

« Last Edit: 22 December 2011, 11:35:23 AM by william_phang »

Offline dilbert

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #385 on: 22 December 2011, 11:46:42 AM »
Saya coba jelaskan ya apa yg saya pernah baca dan dengar.... kekosongan itu bisa dibagi menjadi:
- kekosongan rupa - ini kayak arupa brahma
- kekosongan nama - ini kalo tidak salah -asannasatta
- kekosongan nama - rupa --- ini adalah nibbana
mohon koreksi kalo salah

kekosongan nama-rupa = nibbana... lah para arahat yang masih hidup (yg belum meninggal dunia) itu dianggap apa ?
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
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Offline senbudha

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #386 on: 22 December 2011, 12:21:19 PM »
Selama ini kt berdebat berdasarkan buku2 yg kt baca,tp apakah ada di antara kt yg sdh sanggup hidup serba susah spt di hutan,kuburan atau di desa terpencil?hanya sekedar menguji batin kt smp dimana daya tahannya,atau mencoba duduk dlm posisi teratai utk merasakan sensasi sakit yg menguji ketahanan?Apakah kt sdh mampu memberikan sesuatu yg berharga  dr kt utk menolong orang lain?apalagi KALO ORANG ITU YG KT tdk suka? Ingatlah tokoh2 suci yg ada dlm buku2 Budhist,semuanya pernah melewati HIDUP YG SANGAT MENDERITA utk mencapai BUAH.hanya orang yg telah melewati sebuah jalan yg bisa menceritakan keadaan jalan tersebut.Kt dikasih tahu,agar tahu keadaan jalan,tp blm jelas smp kt ada di jalan itu,merasakannya dan TAHU SENDIRI.Kt berterima kasih pd para suciwan Budhist yg telah menceritakan jalan itu agar kt lebih mempersiapkan diri.Jujur kukatakan,di antara kt,utk terlahir sbg manusia aja,sdh sgt susah.BUDHA GOTAMA memberitahukan pd mereka yg punya sdkt debu batin,ADA JALAN UTK MENHENTIKAN DERITA,maka itu memang ada jalannya.Mari kt jalankan semampu kt,kumpulkan dikit dm dikit pupuk kebajikan dan hidup sesuai sila budhist dlm setiap kehidupan,maka kt akan tahu jawaban itu.Bagi mereka yg BENAR2 dlm JALAN,mereka akan TAHU apa kuceritakan disini.

Offline dilbert

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #387 on: 22 December 2011, 12:24:57 PM »
Selama ini kt berdebat berdasarkan buku2 yg kt baca,tp apakah ada di antara kt yg sdh sanggup hidup serba susah spt di hutan,kuburan atau di desa terpencil?hanya sekedar menguji batin kt smp dimana daya tahannya,atau mencoba duduk dlm posisi teratai utk merasakan sensasi sakit yg menguji ketahanan?Apakah kt sdh mampu memberikan sesuatu yg berharga  dr kt utk menolong orang lain?apalagi KALO ORANG ITU YG KT tdk suka? Ingatlah tokoh2 suci yg ada dlm buku2 Budhist,semuanya pernah melewati HIDUP YG SANGAT MENDERITA utk mencapai BUAH.hanya orang yg telah melewati sebuah jalan yg bisa menceritakan keadaan jalan tersebut.Kt dikasih tahu,agar tahu keadaan jalan,tp blm jelas smp kt ada di jalan itu,merasakannya dan TAHU SENDIRI.Kt berterima kasih pd para suciwan Budhist yg telah menceritakan jalan itu agar kt lebih mempersiapkan diri.Jujur kukatakan,di antara kt,utk terlahir sbg manusia aja,sdh sgt susah.BUDHA GOTAMA memberitahukan pd mereka yg punya sdkt debu batin,ADA JALAN UTK MENHENTIKAN DERITA,maka itu memang ada jalannya.Mari kt jalankan semampu kt,kumpulkan dikit dm dikit pupuk kebajikan dan hidup sesuai sila budhist dlm setiap kehidupan,maka kt akan tahu jawaban itu.Bagi mereka yg BENAR2 dlm JALAN,mereka akan TAHU apa kuceritakan disini.

Buddha Gautama juga pernah "berdebat" dengan penganut ajaran lain, jika memang "menyebarkan dhamma" bisa di-sebut dengan berdebat.
VAYADHAMMA SANKHARA APPAMADENA SAMPADETHA
Semua yang berkondisi tdak kekal adanya, berjuanglah dengan penuh kewaspadaan

Offline Indra

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #388 on: 22 December 2011, 12:30:31 PM »
Semua member dalam thread ini sudah mendapat "click" tanpa melihat bulunya.

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Re: Pencapaian Nibbana dan Terlahir kembali
« Reply #389 on: 22 December 2011, 12:56:52 PM »
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